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An attempt to model LOT

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An attempt to model LOT

I’ve been puzzling over LOT theory for a while, so I set out to construct a mechanical model that would help me understand it. Here is the model.

I have no formal training in anatomy or medicine. I currently believe but am not confident that this model represents reality. I am hoping that others will take a look and comment on the accuracy.

You’ll understand the model better by looking at the following figure (this is the first time I’ve attached a file, so it may appear at the bottom): LOT.jpg

The figure shows three simple drawings of a penis being subjected to stretching force from different angles. What’s identical across the three drawings are the positions of the bones to which the various penile structures attach. These bones are shown roughly, as circles, toward the right of each drawing. The top circle in each drawing represents the pubic symphysis, which I believe is the bone to which the suspensory ligament (or, at least part of it) attaches. Below that and slightly to the right (i.e., more internally to the body) is another circle representing both sides of the ischiopubic ramus. These, I believe, are the loop shaped bones that we sit on. From what I’ve read, the crura (i.e, separated internal portions of the corpora cavernosa) are anchored to the bottom parts of these bones, one to each side.

The penis itself includes numerous tough fascia and other forms of connective tissue. These include Buck’s fascia and the tunica albuginea. From what I’ve read, these tissues extend inside the body and attach to the perineal membrane in the perineum. Within the penis, they appear to attach just below the glans. For purposes of the figure, the perineum is essentially in the same spot as the bottom circle, i.e., the ischiopubic ramus.

Now that I think I have a handle on the structure, how does it work? Here’s what I’m thinking. Kegeling flexes the PC muscle and pulls on the perineal membrane. This, in turn, pulls on the tunica and fascia, which in turn pull back on the head of the penis, assuming the penis is fully extended.

As the figure suggests, Kegeling pulls back on the head of the penis as long as the tunica and fascia are bearing the stretching force. This is not the case, however, when the suspensory ligament is taut. Under this condition, the tunica and fascia (or, more correctly, the portions inside the body) remain lax. Kegeling at this point will generally not pull back on the head (i.e., because it’s pulling on a lax string).

Of course, changing the angle of the stretching force varies the tension on the suspensory ligament. The lower the angle, the tighter the ligament.

If I’m seeing this correctly, this model can explain Loss of Tugback, or LOT, as follows. Simply, LOT occurs at the angle at which the stretching force shifts from the tunica (and fascia) to the suspensory ligament. Tugback is lost because the suspensory ligament limits the penis’ extension, so that the connection back to the PC muscle becomes lax. Essentially, the PC muscle can’t pull back on the penis far enough to pick up the slack.

Some interesting observations flow from this model. First, you would not expect LOT to be abrupt (i.e., either it’s tugging back or it’s not, with no in between). Rather, LOT should be gradual. As the penis is pulled at progressively more downward angles, the suspensory ligament should gradually tighten. As it tightens, tugback should diminish from a maximum value (I’m guessing 2 or 3 mm) down to zero.

Second, it appears that erect length can only be increased by stretching the tunica and fascia (or, to say it more accurately, by stretching the body of the penis itself). It seems from the model that stretching the suspensory ligament will only affect the amount of penis revealed below your LOT. Above your LOT, your ligs are out of the picture (lax) and do not limit your length. At least on the surface, this suggests that downward vertical hanging may not be as effective as hanging at higher angles, for maximizing erect length.

But it also appears that the suspensory ligament cannot be stretched without also stretching the the external portions of the tunica and fascia, at least along the top surfaces where the suspensory ligament attaches. So even downward hanging will probably help somewhat with erect length.

__________________________________
The information on anatomy that I used for this model was obtained from Boston University Medical School’s website at

http://www.bumc.bu.edu/Departments/…epartmentID=371

I’ve also found some wonderful pictures at http://www.med.uottawa.ca/medweb/de…2_crs_lec02.htm

As a postscript, while studying the anatomy for this post, I think I found some contradictions in the definition of “tunica.” The BU site refers to the tunica as the sheath the surrounds all 3 corpora of the penis. However, the Ottawa site identifies it as the separate sheaths that individually surround the corpora. The envelope surrounding all three is identified as Buck’s fascia. Check it out.


Last edited by ModestoMan : 08-11-2004 at .

This time

THe file format might have not been legal (scraps of jpgs). I’ll try again with real jpgs now.

Attached Images
Up.jpg
(12.5 KB, 635 views)
Horiz.jpg
(10.2 KB, 562 views)
Down.jpg
(13.8 KB, 522 views)

I think your drawings are correct if you’re talking about external forces pulling on the penis, but I’m not so sure about your evaluation of the theory (above). You may not have seen this or this. Read them and let me know what you think.

Your diagrams appear correct to me.

> First, you would not expect LOT to be abrupt (i.e., either it’s tugging back or it’s not, with no in between). Rather, LOT should be gradual.<

Mine is pretty abrupt. The ligs aren’t very stretchy (not in a bungee cord kind of way). They are at max length when you’re pulling with only a few pounds of force, so there isn’t enough elasticity there to affect the LOT point. It does seem to be pretty much either/or. The switchover range is very narrow. I’d guess maybe 15 minutes at most on the imaginary clock face, and at least part of that is user error in discerning twitching from true tugback. A guy should be able to determine his LOT to within a 15 minute range, say 7:30-7:45 as an example.

>Second, it appears that erect length can only be increased by stretching the tunica and fascia (or, to say it more accurately, by stretching the body of the penis itself).<

The actual length of the shaft, yes. But expressed length can be increased by stretching ligs. The “exit point” lowers, exposing more of the shaft. How much increase this causes depends on how high and tight the ligs were to begin with.

Modesto-
As far as I can tell you have a good grasp of Bib’s LOT Theory :) If there is anything to reconsider/rephrase I think it is this (the last sentence):

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
Second, it appears that erect length can only be increased by stretching the tunica and fascia (or, to say it more accurately, by stretching the body of the penis itself). It seems from the model that stretching the suspensory ligament will only affect the amount of penis revealed below your LOT. Above your LOT, your ligs are out of the picture (lax) and do not limit your length. At least on the surface, this suggests that downward vertical hanging may not be as effective as hanging at higher angles, for maximizing erect length.

While you are correct that an actual increase in length only occurs when the tunica itself is lengthened, it shouldn’t be downplayed that considerable erect “gains” can be realized in many/most cases through the lengthening of the ligs. As you have already pointed out, this might best be thought of as a rearrangement of existing anatomy: More of your existing penis is expressed as your ligs are stretched downward.
A seemingly nit-picky technicality, but an important distinction when considering the viability of hanging at low angles - especially when one takes into consideration the relative ease of lengthening their ligs compared to the challenge of “creating” more tunica.

I think this gets right to the heart of Bib’s Theory and it’s practical usefulness: What approach would be most effective and time efficient for an individual to take when attempting to lengthen their penis?

Quote
But it also appears that the suspensory ligament cannot be stretched without also stretching the the external portions of the tunica and fascia, at least along the top surfaces where the suspensory ligament attaches. So even downward hanging will probably help somewhat with erect length.

I personally think that hanging at low angles can do much for increasing the length of the tunica.

btw- I think the all encompassing “tunica” simply ends up being used as a word in PE parlance to cover a lot of anatomical ground - helps keep things simple.

Quote
btw- I think the all encompassing “tunica” simply ends up being used as a word in PE parlance to cover a lot of anatomical ground - helps keep things simple.

Yep. I wish “shaft” had caught on instead.

In truth I wish I had waited a few more minutes and then I could have simply posted “What Hobby said” instead. :)

Keep in mind the ligs are not simply connected at two points. The ligs are continuous with the fasci which invests the corpora. I am not 100% but I believe it is the deep fasci, or bucks fascia. My mind is fuzzy on the details but they are not relevant anyways. My point is that the corpora would expand to a limit imposed by the fasci. The fasci keep the corpora from expanding “without boud”. When you stretch the ligs you are not stretching a “cord” but certain subsections of the fascia near where the ligament becomes continuous with the fasci. Stretching the fascia enables the corpora to grow to accomodate the bigger fascia.

And hobby’s geometrical argument about the lower exit point.


-Still bitter the y2k bug was a dud.

-My dear boy, do you ask a fish how it swims? (No.) Or a bird how it flies? (No.) Of course not. They do it because they were born to do it...


Last edited by Tube : 08-11-2004 at .

I should add about the LOT switchover: mine is abrupt and most guys have reported the same. A few say they can’t find a concrete LOT point - that their tugback gradually tapers away. Either they have something physically different going on or they aren’t checking LOT correctly.

Personally I can’t find my lot down to the quarter hour. I struggled even to get an hourly “reading”.


-Still bitter the y2k bug was a dud.

-My dear boy, do you ask a fish how it swims? (No.) Or a bird how it flies? (No.) Of course not. They do it because they were born to do it...

These are terrific responses.

I’ve frankly had some problems measuring my LOT, which is initially what prompted me to do this analysis. From Hobby’s first response, I wonder whether I should be pulling harder when I look for tugback. I currently apply fairly light tension.

One concern I have about downward hanging is that my ligs will get too loose too quickly, and my tunica will simply not be able to keep up. The result will be a low angle erection. This might be fine, but I’ve heard many people say that the upward force imparted by the suspensory ligament during an erection actually helps with sex, by stimulating the G-spot.

West: Thanks for the link to the PC versus BC distinction. I was actually wondering whether there were 2 different muscles. I can feel a faint sensation of this when I Kegel, but have not yet been able to isolate one from the other during my workouts. This link really helps to clarify how the penis is connected to the perineum and how the tugback mechanism works.

Regarding the second link, I completely agree that LOT theory may not be especially earth shattering. Pulling up applies tension directly to the tunica; pulling down shares the tension between the tunica and the ligs. If you want to have a lower exit point and don’t care if your erection appears to be at half mast, hang straight down. It will probably help make a grower into a shower and will probably result in tunica growth. But if you want a bigger dick that still points north, and are content with how much of your flaccid penis is revealed, pull straight up.

Thanks for the links. This is great information that is very hard to come by.

Some time has gone by since my last post on this thread. I slightly regret having said, “LOT theory may not be especially earth shattering.”

I now believe that LOT theory is an effective way of thinking about penile anatomy, because it informs us about the relative tightness of the ligs versus the “shaft.”

When I wrote this, I had not yet started hanging. Now, I do it almost every day, and I think LOT has a lot (:) ) of significance to hangers.

Here’s one point that seems to come up quite a bit: The septum, whch connects the two cc’s, and falls under the general term “tunica,” should be most affected by upward angles. Many people on the forum seem to comment that the only way they “feel” their septum being pulled is through straight down or btc position. What do you think the relevance of this is? Do you think think it is possile that there is a confusion between the ligs and the septum, or would there be a situation where this is possible?


One foot down...one to go

The trouble I have with accepting that LOT is caused by the ligaments is that LOT is inevitable when the penis is significantly bent at the point where it exits the body. If the last diagram in post #2 were correct in showing the penis absolutely straight from its internal anchor point to its tip then I would be more inclined to accept the theory. In reality there should be a significant angle between the internal and external penis in the third diagram. That angle on its own will cause loss of visible tugback at the tip of the penis.

If anyone doubts the effect of the angle on tugback, try the following-

Get a short piece of string/cord/tape.
Hold one end near your pubic bone and give little tugs while holding the other end away from your body. Make sure the tugs are kept in the same direction and alter the angle of the string with your other hand. When the string is in line with the tug you will see full tugback as you angle the string the tugback becomes less.


Feb 2004 BPEL 6.7" NBPEL ???? BPFSL ???? EG 5.65" Feb 2005 BPEL 7.1" NBPEL 5.8" BPFSL 6.9" EG 5.8" Feb 2006 BPEL 7.3" NBPEL 5.8" BPFSL 7.6" EG 5.85" Feb 2007 BPEL 7.3" NBPEL 5.8" BPFSL 7.5" EG 5.9"

Is it possible to turn the model round? In other words, with known measurable parameters (like LOT angle, length of outer penis, etc) to make the model estimate the ratio of the inner penis to the outer? That ratio seems to me to give an indication of the potential further initial gains available from basic PE exercises. Would a high Inner/Outer ratio indicate that some initial gains are still available?

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