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Question regarding PE speed of growth and recovery time

<sigh>
I’m tired of defending Static Contraction Training to the Muscel Militia when what I’m trying to focus on is PE, so I’ll try to be brief, yet address as much as possible.

Hobby, everything you believe is total bullshit and you’re an embarrasment to the concept of what a moderator should be.
Does that sound like a nice enough way for a total stranger to initiate a dialog with you? Because that’s pretty much how you came at me.

I only respond with attitude to those who fired off a salvo of it at me first. Go back and read the tone of my initial post and the subsequent responses to those who had unpleasant keyboard manners. See the dynamics of the discourse as it developed. Look at the big picture.

And it’s disgraceful that a Moderator, who by definition is supposed to MODERATE discussion and show some professionalism and reflect positively on the forum’s management would verbally assault a new member who has never uttered a disrespectful word to you and who has only matched the tone others have used with him.
If anything, you should be redirecting the conversation towards more a mutually respectful middleground, instead of verbally scourging me for having an opinion that differs with yours. Hell, you might want to change your focus and look at the tonality of those who’s side you rush to with aid.

Those who acted like asses are treated accordingly. When they stop throwing rocks, I’ll stop shooting bullets.
But if you jump into the fray, don’t get mad if you get your hat handed to you.

Every forum has it’s share of experts in different areas that go around dispensing information with a heavy dose of sarcasm or nastiness, a la Nick Burns, your company’s computer guy.

Don’t be THAT guy, Hobby…

I hardly think that wolfpacking with a loudmouth oaf that instead of disagreeing and intelligently making their case, insults a person’s beliefs in as vulgar a fashion as they can muster, is part of the job description of a Moderator.

Instead of becoming curious about why I believe what I do and enagaging me in dialogue, you lashed out like a petulant child.

Your tone, delivery and level of aggression only serve to prove that you lack tact, civility and the capacity for a proportional response.

You said:
“Arrogantly proselytizing from a basis of obvious ignorance isn’t tolerated well here.”

Then don’t violate that sacred axiom yourself.

Show some class. Don’t start none, won’t be none.

Here endeth the lesson.

———————————————-

Now, like you, I am entitled to my opinion, and like you, I have looked into this subject matter and consider myself a reasonably informed source, though I’m sure I can always learn more.

You make a superficially valid point when you say:
“Hypertrophy in the context of weight training is the growth of muscle cells”

The key here being the word “CONTEXT”.

Yes, in the context of weight training, the word hypertrophy is regrettably often misused to describe muscle growth. But this is deceptive as traditionally, the word hypertrophy relates to ABNORMAL growth processes. Not the body’s normal adaptive response.

Abnormal… Such as in “prostatic hypertrophy” - an enlarged prostate.
Now, no man that I know of “works out his prostate” to make it bigger, so using a word that means an abnormal enlargement to describe what is a natural and normal body process is counter intuitive and a poor solipsism at best.

Muscular hypertrophy and tissue/bone hypertrophy are totally different processes.

So if you’re going go George Carlin on me about the use of language and specific words, let’s change the phrasing so that both our aesthetic tastes are sated.

DISTENTION happens as a result of the body giving in to external forces and accomodating them via shape modification. Like a reed bending in the wind. Skull reshaping, neck rings, earlobe stretching, plate-in-the-lip stretching, Japanese footbinding and PE are some examples.

MUSCLE GROWTH is a reactive AND proactive response by the CNS. It reacts to external force by arming itself with the necessary construct to countermand that force. As in the CNS saying to itself, “Hmm.. I’m not strong enough to lift that, I guess I better make those muscles bigger so they become stronger and can get the job done.”

The CNS does not come into play in DISTENTION. When you do yoga or pre-weight lifting stretching, etc; and your muscles become more limber and flexible, does that lead to them GROWING IN SIZE AND STRENGTH as well? Your theory of hypertrophy would seem to say so.

And I have a question for you:

Both you and Red say that strength increases are NOT the result of MUSCULAR GROWTH, but rather some alakazoola magicaboola bippety boppety boo trick that the CNS pulls on your muscles, rendering the heretofore totally unchanged muscle now mystically capable of performing feats it couldn’t just some time ago, using the exact same quantity and density of muscle tissue. Like Spiderman.

So you’re saying that the CNS is basically a volume knob which can be used to suddenly turn up the volume of the strength level of our muscles.

If that’s so, then muscle size is not responsible for real strength. And by that logic, muscles shouldn’t grow in size in response to lifting weights. Our muscular “volume” should just continue to be turned up, but size should never increase.

So which is it?

Do our muscles grow in size because larger, thicker muscles equal more strength and the CNS governs that growth process?

Or does the constant PUMPING and SQUEEZING of our muscles when performing sets and reps in a peak contracted state and the subsequent long term distention (and nasty looking overvascularity) stretch our muscle tissues liek a runenr band, while the CNS turns up the magic volume knob?

Please enlighten this poor, intellectual indigent .

At least that what it seemed like you guys were saying to me. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

Now, I was under the impression from what I’ve read and heard that a muscle’s strength lies in it’s crossectional thickness. The bigger and thicker and more densely packed a group of fibers are, the stronger the cable or rope. How is it possible to add no more cables, and not thicken the rope, yet make it suddenly capable of enduring more weight? Sounds like magical thinking to me…

This is the point I raised when addressing Necro’s salty post in regards to what I am now calling Muscular Distention. I assert that distention does NOT contribute any additional strength. Muscular GROWTH does.

It’s true that cellular division doesn’t happen in the case of muscles, only thickening and enlargement of the fibers via protein synthesis and a few other complicated processes. But this is not hypertrophy of the muscular distention flavor. This is muscular growth.

To say that muscle size doesn’t correlate to strength is to negate the obvious way the body works and the way nature works. if those muscels weren’t so huge on a horse, it wouldn’t gallop at the speed it does. Likewise, a elephant wouldn’t be able to hoist that much weight on legts that were more slighter of build.

Again, I’ll address the fact that there are some people who via ligament strength, exceptional balance and secondary muscle coordination have been able to achieve feats of strength normally reserved for the much brawnier Mesomorphs, but these are the exception to the rule and if you tack on more muscle to their frames, they become even stronger.

Again, muscle = strength.

And finally, unless you’ve READ the eBook or other articles by Pete Sisco/John Little or any oen else that knows what their program is about, you can’t shoot it down based on your perceptions of what the program is about.

Do the research, find out the facts, THEN refute it if you can. I want to hear specifics on what SCT says, and then the contrasting explanation that knocks the legs out from underneath that, backed up with some kind of empirical data, study, etc. Something.

Saying, “that’s bullshit” ain’t gonna cut it anymore, and as you said, “proselytizing from a basis of obvious ignorance isn’t tolerated well here”.

So get to researching, sizzle-chest! ;-)


Last edited by morpheusx : 09-18-2004 at . Reason: Forgot to spellcheck

Morpheusx,

Once again youre all wet.

1. CST is an off shoot of charles Atlas isometric excercise routine, albeit a better system. It is not revolutionary.

2. Tony Robbins was associated with Bill Phillips and George Cruz before CST came to town. Robbins is a business man, he chose to align himself with CST because its hawked well by Little and Sisco. It also lends itself to people who think its possible to gain 30 pounds ina couple of months because this is “revoutionary” and ” rewriting physiology books”, well there not fooling anyone here. I believe the word is huckster. Do some MASSIVE research and see if you can get a definition for that.

3. Im calling you out. You claim to have MASSIVE 18 inch arms lets see them. You cant say you dont have the technology because your a web designer. And hold up 2 fingers while your posing so theres no cut and paste going on. And perhaps hold up your picture drivers licence with your thumb cover the private info. I dont trust you do I?

4. Physiology isnt the same in everyone. Muscle have different ratios of fast to slow twitch in everyone, people have slightly different, if only in effeciency, vascular systems, and nervous systems. Therefore different techniques, be they pe or weight lifting work for different people.

5. If you would spend more time researching and less yammering on and on with dogmatic non-sense you would have already recognized that the underlying principles to muscular growth and pe are known and are in this thread , so take your Ritalin focus deeply on the following.

Muscular size stimulation (make a note this is just about stimulating growth and doesnt begin to cover days off,sleep or diet)

1. Lift weights heavy enough to trigger central nervous system.

2. Lifts weights enough to get a good aching pump.

Thats it, thats all there is to it. Because everyone has a slightly different physiology different techniques work for different people. This is learned through trial and error for most people although there are some basic rules of thumb concerning fiber type. There is no one size fits all routine for everyone, as much as people of a simplistic mindset might want that.

P.E.

1.Stretch the ligs

2.Stretch the tunica

3.Increase blood supply etc.. via jelqing

I dont think Tony Robbins ever advocated ignoring research thats already been done. Read read read.

Thunder I hope you let him reply, Im not done with him yet.

Red Rooster

Additionally here is how muscle is grown. First lifting weights makes your neuromuscular system more effecient, if your brain needs to think of this as a volume knob so be it, at the same time your ligaments become stronger. When your volume knob approaches 10 and your ligs are stronger only then does muscular growth happen. This is why strength precedes size. This is a physiological FACT.

CST is very good at neuromuscular effeciency and lig strength building, but very poor at building size because it does not address the vascular angle. If I thought you could put 2+2 together without consulting Pete Sisco I would suggest you might find a correlation between jeqing and pumping iron (both need superior vascular system to grow bigger).

Sorry about ranting fellow P.E.ers

And dont take this too personally Morph , I think its great your getting your life together with Robbins help, he helped me too, but you have to do serious research if you want the truth about anything.

Red Rooster

Alrighty. I’m back!
But I’m determined to change the focus of the topic back to the PE related discussion, so I’ll only touch on a response to some of the other peripheral issues:

“1. CST is an off shoot of charles Atlas isometric excercise routine, albeit a better system. It is not revolutionary.”

*** I said this in an earlier post. Go back and re-read. And it’s revolutionary to me and alot of other folks that were all fed the old caveman method of bodybuilding all these years.

“2. Tony Robbins was associated with Bill Phillips and George Cruz before CST came to town. Robbins is a business man, he chose to align himself with CST because its hawked well by Little and Sisco. It also lends itself to people who think its possible to gain 30 pounds ina couple of months because this is “revoutionary” and ” rewriting physiology books”, well there not fooling anyone here. I believe the word is huckster. Do some MASSIVE research and see if you can get a definition for that.”

*** So if something better, more effective comes along, you would still continue to use the old technology? Hey, I’ve got aspirin and Advil in my medicine cabinet. Let me know how those leeches and animal sacrifices are working for you. lol
And again, it works for me and a lot of people. So sorry it hasn’t worked for you. Make you should maintain your goal, but change your approach. There is more than just one technique of SCT. There’s also beta routines and finally, you can always go back to Power Factor training. It would seem to be right along the lines of the type of workout you prefer. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

3. Im calling you out. You claim to have MASSIVE 18 inch arms lets see them. You cant say you dont have the technology because your a web designer. And hold up 2 fingers while your posing so theres no cut and paste going on. And perhaps hold up your picture drivers licence with your thumb cover the private info. I dont trust you do I?

***Woohoo! I haven’t been called out by anyone since Francis O’Connell in the 4rd grade (he took a swing at me, I ducked and came up with an uppercut that knocked him on his ass. Stupid bully trying to show off for his friends caught a hot one right on the button.)
Well first of all, I’d like you to show me where I said I had “MASSIVE” 18” arms. It’s a fact that I do have 18 inch arms.
I’m also 6’ tall and weight about 300 LBs of (mostly) muscle. lol.. You could say that I have a football player frame. Okay, maybe a retired football players frame. ;-p
Never said I had RIPPED, STRIATED, VEINY AND MENACING looking 18” inch arms. I just have 18” inch arms. I just measured it the night before with a tape measure. Now,

I just HATE to disappoint you Red, (cuz we’re such old friends, ;-) ), but actually, I don’t have a digital camera. I’m not a photographer and I don’t get out of the house much anymore due to my insane workload, so I’m not a shutterbug kind of guy. Sorry. So much for the “You can’t say you don’t have the technology” argument, cuz I don’t!
Unfortunately for you, even if I had a camera, I am a professional graphic designer and highly skilled in Photoshop. So believe me, if I wanted to doctor up a photo, you wouldn’t be able to tell. I could put a photo of your head on a Harley motorcycle with handlebars growing out of your ears and you’d swear it was their new line of Cyborg bikes. lol
But, to appease you, I’ll see if I can get some Polaroid film, snap a shot with the tape measure and scan the photo in. Lord only knows when I’ll find the time, but if I do, you’ll definitely get a photo of it for your “Me and My Buddy Morpheus” scrapbook you’re secretly building. :-)

4. Physiology isnt the same in everyone. Muscle have different ratios of fast to slow twitch in everyone, people have slightly different, if only in effeciency, vascular systems, and nervous systems. Therefore different techniques, be they pe or weight lifting work for different people.

***True, but don’t forget that fast and slow twitch muscles develop in response to different demands. Sprinters have more fast twitch muscle development (densely packed smaller cells) and long distance runners have more slow twitch muscle development (less densely packed cells, but longer , larger fibers)

SCT creates that fast twitch muscle (intense brief blasts of exertion) as well as making them longer. More cell density and each cell is also larger = best of both worlds, no?

5. If you would spend more time researching and less yammering on and on with dogmatic non-sense you would have already recognized that the underlying principles to muscular growth and pe are known and are in this thread , so take your Ritalin focus deeply on the following.

***Well, Meow, hiss and spittle to you too, Buster!

I think you forget the most essential thing of all:
I am rubber, you are glue. Whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you.

I do my research. I just come to different conclusions than you. That happens sometimes, you know. And last time I checked, you’ve got a nice little yammerama thing happening on your side of the fence, buddy boy!
As for the principles of PE growth being in this thread, again, there is no consensus on any of it, or the scientific merits, nor the underlying process or even which exercises are optimal! Or were you to busy spellchecking “dogmatic” to notice? :-P

Muscular size stimulation (make a note this is just about stimulating growth and doesn’t begin to cover days off,sleep or diet)

1. Lift weights heavy enough to trigger central nervous system.

***Right. But exactly HOW much is “enough”? What’s the formula?

2. Lifts weights enough to get a good aching pump.
***That happens automatically if you exert the muscle hard enough for long enough (which SCT does). The question is HOW long to do it for? And why that long? What magical moment is it in that the growth signal is sent to the CNS?

Thats it, thats all there is to it. Because everyone has a slightly different physiology different techniques work for different people. This is learned through trial and error for most people although there are some basic rules of thumb concerning fiber type. There is no one size fits all routine for everyone, as much as people of a simplistic mindset might want that.
***See, that’s where I disagree. I believe muscle growth as an adaptive response to stressors is a universal physical process for all human beings. Sure, everybody is a little different, development rates vary, physical response varies, etc. But that doesn’t change the base process at work and what the neuromuscular precursors are to stimulate that process. It can’t just be a matter of moving your arm this way or that way or squeezing really hard here or there.

P.E.

1.Stretch the ligs
***Oh, to be sure.

2.Stretch the tunica
***Yeah, why not. I’ve got nothing better to do on a Saturday.

3.Increase blood supply etc.. via jelqing
***Hmm…Not that I think cutting off blood to the penis is a helpful or good thing (lol), but why is having an increased flow of blood so vital in your opinion?
(See? There’s a chance for you to actually contribute to my knowledge base instead of my stomach acid level!)

I dont think Tony Robbins ever advocated ignoring research thats already been done. Read read read.

***Nope. Not at all. However, he stresses human development and progressive advancement via constant reading and study in order to update and upgrade your knowledge base with the best, new technology and information. So you can go lift boulders on a stick with the Flintstones if you’d like. I’ll stick with my Musculizer 3000 workout. :-)


Last edited by morpheusx : 09-18-2004 at . Reason: Spelling

morpheusx,

I summarised your post for other readers:

“Why is having an increased flow of blood important?”

Gee, thanks! lol..

I’ll also do some post-digging research on the issue, but I imagine that avoiding tissue necrosis would have to rank pretty high on the list of reasons why.

I was just curious as to whether his reasoning for the need for increased blood flow is to stave off necrosis or whether he felt it played some part in enhancing actual growth, which I don’t believe occurs during the exercise itself, but during the post-recovery growth sessions.


Last edited by morpheusx : 09-18-2004 at . Reason: type-o

Originally Posted by memento
morpheusx,

I summarised your post for other readers:

“Why is having an increased flow of blood important?”

I think you missed Mem’s point, Morpheus, which was that you are not making your own point real well, just being verbose.

I read your theory. It is not at all clear to me how it would work in practical PE - using a muscle-building technique on an organ which is in fact not a muscle.

Describe to us, in 400 words or less, a routine of PE that incorporates CST principles without mentioning Robbins, Phillips, or Cruz (or CST history, which is really boring to me), won’t damage a newbie’s cock, and you may attract more interest.


_______________

avocet8

Quote:
“I think you missed Mem’s point, Morpheus, which was that you are not making your own point real well, just being verbose.”

No, I didn’t miss his point. But I think you’re missing some manners. Next time, express yourself without insulting the other person.
It’s shameful how people who are disrespectful are surprised when they are responded to in the same way. You get back what you put out.

Mem volunteered his personal opinion about what part of my post he wanted to hear. He’s entitled to it. We all are.
But in the end, I am the final arbiter of what is or is not important in my post. I was responding line for line to Red’s questions/comments with humor and affability, despite his nasty tone dating back to prior posts. If Mem didn’t want to read my responses to Red, he could have chosen to ignore this topic and move on to another post. But instead he chose to comment about which part of my post he wanted to hear.

I simply did the same for his. With congeniality, I might add. It keeps the peace. I don’t think it was called for, but I’ve had enough grief for one topic. Sometimes you just have to let things roll off your shoulder.

Quote:
“I read your theory. It is not at all clear to me how it would work in practical PE - using a muscle-building technique on an organ which is in fact not a muscle.”

What messageboard are you looking at? I never advocated using SCT techniques for PE. I have CONTINUALLY advocated tissue hypertrophy/distention with long duration stretching for length and long duration, continual engorgement for thickness. I’ve only said it a million times, post after post. Go back and read them.

Oh, I’m sorry. That’s right. You probably didn’t read them. Too “verbose” for you to get through. I understand…

For the record, the only time I even mentioned SCT and PE exercises in the same CONTEXT was in my VERY FIRST post. And that was when I asked devil’s advocate questions, trying to expose the fallacy in the logic of those that believe that PE and weight lifting are analogous processes, by raising the issue of the role of recovery and growth in bodybuilding in regards to PE.
This is a complex thought process to explain, but when trying to bring others to the same understanding you have, sometimes it’s not enough to just argue your own point and state your facts. Sometimes you have to walk that person down the line of their own logic, their own reasoning and their own facts. Question their assumptions.

Ask them questions which then when they search and find the answer reveal the flaw in the equation for themselves. Once they have done the math and understand how it can’t be accurate, then they are more open to new ideas.

Awww.. forget it. It’s not worth it. If after reading all my posts you were able to come to the conclusion you did, reading comprehension is obviously more of a challenge than grasping the concepts I’m speaking about. <sigh>

BRADY BUNCH “END OF THE EPISODE” LESSON:
People should be respectful, even when they disagree. Follow the golden rule. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
___________________________

I’m polite to everyone and an easygoing guy. If you go back and read all my posts, you’ll see that from the very first post onwards.
It was only later when those that were disrespectful to me brought out the dark side and were replied to in kind.

But it seems that some people have a problem disagreeing without being disagreeable. I’m not here to fight and argue; merely to discuss legitimate ideas, thoughts, facts, opinions. Disagreeing with each other on scientific merit, personal experience or just plain old gut feeling is fine as long as it’s done with civility.

But if just DISCUSSING a topic with someone who doesn’t share your opinions turns you into a rude asshole, then you need to address your anger management issues elsewhere.

And definitely avoid me. Because I counterpunch… HARD.

Other than that, I’m just your friendly neighborhood web designer man! :-)


Last edited by morpheusx : 09-19-2004 at . Reason: Typos

This is a lot of shit stirring for just 17 posts :)

AH

Morph you continue to amaze me with your B.S., truly, truly amazed. If you are 300 lbs and 6 foot , why in the world would you use CST. Tony Robbins wouldnt advocate that. And I believe its fair to say Little and Sisco wouldnt like your attitude on this thread. Your trying to be some revolutionary innovating guru type. Read more, talk less and stop teaching us “lessons” when its clear to all that you dont understand much PE theory. People are short with you because your rude and arrogant, personally I dont even believe youve ever lifted a weight, not to mention your story about all the pe techniques youve used. If you even jelqed once you would see blood flow is increased and helps create stronger/bigger erections.

As for CST, if it were what you claim competitive body builders would be using it and they arent, the current USA heavy weight champion in natural bodybuliding has said it has taken him 20 years to build 30 lbs of muscle and uses a conventional routine. CST is not new , revolutionary, or even better. Its just marketed better than in the old days and maybe not even that, as Charles Atlas was a great marketer. CST is perfect for making money on because uninformed people see something that looks easy, takes little time and works fast. Its a hallmark of marketing to have a product that is “different”, remember Dave Thomas’ Wendys hamburgers when they came out, new and different-they were square! CST is the same in that its different/unique.
Im not arguing with everything Little/Sisco preach, they are one the money about days off and overtraining. Is any of this registering with you? If you really want to understand weight training get a copy of Stuart Mcrobert’s ” Beyond Brawn”. 500 pages of truth and wisdom.

If I might make a suggestion, why dont you drop the CST thing and start a new PE thread, start a progress log and actually put some your ideas to work, we will ALL applaud your progress.

Red Rooster

Originally Posted by morpheusx
Next time, express yourself without insulting the other person.
It’s shameful how people who are disrespectful are surprised when they are responded to in the same way. You get back what you put out.

No, I didn’t miss his point. But I think you’re missing some manners…
For the record, the only time I even mentioned SCT and PE exercises in the same CONTEXT was in my VERY FIRST post….

But if just DISCUSSING a topic with someone who doesn’t share your opinions turns you into a rude asshole, then you need to address your anger management issues elsewhere.

And definitely avoid me. Because I counterpunch… HARD.

Reread what I said. I was direct, not rude or angry. You do use far too many words to express ideas you could get across easily and succinctly, because you are a bright guy, instead of making us haul through paragraph after paragraph to get to The Point. I still don’t know what The Point is unless it is to discuss CST only.

You are posting at a PE site, not a body-building one. Any reader, especially in the Newbie Forum, would assume that you are addressing your theories to building a bigger dick. We have at Thunder’s also a forum for Body-Building which you do not have access to yet but will soon, if you do not manage to offend too many people before you get there.

There is a wise principle of discussion that goes, “Never accelerate; convince.”

You said: “And definitely avoid me. Because I counterpunch… HARD.”

Now: How do you expect that I and other members of this community, which you are trying to fit into, react to a statement like that?


_______________

avocet8

Shooeee … I really hope this kind of thing doesn’t go on too often. Is there really that much testosterone poisoning around here? For awhile I thought I was back on the junior high playground.

The heavy research can go to the academics, as far as I’m concerned. I used to be one, and I know how much fun it can be to hunt down The Truth, or try. However, it seems pretty plain that there are a whole bunch of PE techniques in here, at least some of which have worked for some people. And, in addition, there’s a lot of advice and experience posted which says that you try this and try that, and go with what works for you, and meanwhile, here’s how to keep from hurting yourself. There’s something to be said for hearing what a whole bunch of folks have said and shown to work, no matter what the theory seems to say. Not that long ago there was not one aeronautics engineer who could find any reason at all for a bee to be able to fly.

Originally Posted by MrAdventure
Shooeee … I really hope this kind of thing doesn’t go on too often.

It doesn’t.


_______________

avocet8

No it doesnt, and I think Im sorry I got involved. On the other hand it got me back in the gym.
This forum is a wealth of information on pe techniques, its great to have such an arsenal to experiment with.

Red Rooster

P.S. Where did you go Morph? I really was looking forward to a pe progress log.

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