How to lengthen ligaments

This post is technical and experimental, so you’ve been warned.

I’ve been doing jelqing now for about 3 months. I have noticed (and measured) gains that are positive and very encouraging.

My BPFSL has increased by 1/4”, length increase is negligible, and about a 1/8” to 1/4” gain in mid-shaft girth. More then that, the appearance of my penis is “looking” much larger (more of a vein-popping looking with the ligaments much more apparent then before). I’m sold on jelqing, it works for me.

Lately though I’ve been doing a great deal of reading on ligaments. Some posts here have indicated that my negligible length gains may be due to the small difference between my BPFSL and my BPEL (that difference is under 1/4”). It seems that my ligaments are most likely the limiting factor in my length, and probably the area I should concentrate on (I’m ok with my girth, but my length goal is BPEL7.5” and I’m currently BPEL5.5”).

Hanging seems the be the most accepted method (of course some will disagree with me!) to increase length. But the best methods I could find, by consensus, are those hanging techniques that focus on long-duration hangs. Here’s my problem: I probably have only 20-30min per day to work on this in seclusion (I’m married, with kids, you get the picture). So the best practices written about here may very well not work for me when I’m only doing one 20min hang per day.

However, looking at the research into ligament stretching, I’m going to use myself as a guinea-pig and try something a bit experimental. I fully assume the risks, I understand completely that what I’m doing could fail, causing permanent damage, loss of erectile quality, shortening of my penis, etc. I’m an adult (46yo) and fully understand what I’m doing.

That said, I’m looking for a little feedback, positive or negative (I know many will warn me against this, but stay with me a bit, I’m comfortable with self-experimentation and will be taking many steps to to minimize negative permanent damage before it happens).

There have been a number of published experiments done on stress and strain characteristics of ligaments. The main ligaments these studies use are the ACL or MCL of rats (which, according to researchers, mimic those same ligaments in humans).

The conclusions of these studies agree with each other to a high degree. As a former engineer with a science degree, this makes me think that these researchers are on to something.

A few quick definitions first:

Elastic - a rubber-band like quality of a ligament. When it’s pulled and released, it returns to the same length as before.
Plastic - more like a silly-putty quality. When pulled and released, doesn’t quite return to original length, but stays somewhat longer then the initial state.
Strain - stretching the ligament, reported as a percentage of the stretched length over the unstretched length.
Stress - the force, in something like lbs or kg, exerted on the ligament to stretch it

The findings show that these ligaments perform elastically at strains below about 5%. So if a ligament is 5” long, and you stretch it to 5.25”, it should return to 5” when you let go.

Ligaments start to exhibit plastic characteristics at strains over about 5%. So pulling that same ligament to 5.5” (not that I recommend that!) means it won’t return to 5” but more like 5.1” when you let go. And that length may be permanent.

It seems to me the key is to reach the plastic zone, but only far enough into the plastic zone to cause deformation without causing serious, overall ligament failure. Easily said, but not so easy if you’re using a constant weight. In other words, if you start hanging with 2.5lbs, and work your way up to 3, 3.5, 4, etc etc, you don’t quite know how much you’re straining the ligament (you know the force, but it’s just a progressive guess as to weather or not you’re in the elastic zone, plastic zone, or the whoa-too-much! Zone)

Instead of using a constant force, I want to adjust the weight used to stretch my ligs to maintain a constant stretched length. So in other words, I want to design a hanging device that puts my penis under a precisely measured length and hold that’s stretched length for a 20min period. And, more importantly, the device would allow a fairly precise way to measure the length changes. My goal is to find the point where my ligaments have just entered the plastic zone, and go no further then this. That will cause some damage (which is the goal), but shouldn’t cause negative issues. More importantly, because I’ve reached the plastic zone, the ligaments are permanently stretched slightly longer. I would then allow time for healing (and assist the healing with heat-pads and jelqing, and then maybe an ADS to help regrowth of the damaged fibers in the longer state) and then repeat the process, each time putting the ligaments just into the plastic zone, which should be increasing each time I do this. The healing time in between could be quite long, maybe weeks or longer.

So over the next few weeks I want to look at designing just such a stretching device and would like any comments on what I’m about to do and if my approach seems solid for this experiment.

Thanks!

User235

That ‘plastic zone’ means nothing else than injury - torn ligaments. And when they’ll be healed, they could be shorter then before.

You can lengthen your ligs with 1-2 hanging sets daily, without injuring yourself. Ain’t that hard to lengthen ligs, actually. Longer ligs will give you only slight erect gains, anyway - 0.25” on average, 0.5” if you really are lucky. Some people had their ligs cut and gained nothing.

Well, I think that all of PE is essentially injury (deformation). Materials and cells in the penis and related areas won’t change unless some damage is done first. This is true of many tissues in the body (muscle, skin, CT, etc). It’s the extent of damage that needs to be targeted. Too much, and resulting scar tissue may inhibit growth, too little and nothing will happen.

My goal is to try something different from traditional methods in the hope that using a different approach has better results. Setting the stretch length rather then using a fixed weight is an alternate approach, and I’m very curious to see whether or not it has advantages. You are right that ligaments may not be the factor in length, but it’s possible the tunica has it’s own stress-strain curve. The combination of the two curves would represent the plot of the penile response to stress. It’s finding that curve that’s difficult.

Focusing on the length aspect may in fact be a more accurate way to modulate tissue damage. Going strictly by weight as you have stated above by doing a straightforward hanging routine will, no doubt, produce gains. However, the more I read about the methodology, the more questions I have.

For example, hangers must progressively add more and more weight to achieve longer deformation. Why is that? Studies I’ve seen also indicate that hanging strengthens the collagen fibers of connective tissue (and it might be safe to assume the tunica falls in this category as well) that are not destroyed by the force of the hanging. This might be why increasing amounts of weight are required, to constantly overcome the increasing strength of the exercised connections. My hope is to not require this by not given the undamaged fibers such a vigorous (daily or near daily) work out. But to allow them to heal somewhat first, and only applying light forces during the healing process to eliminate shortening issues. It could very well be my approach is safer, if it works. And there’s only one way to find out.

Also, if I use the traditional approach, it may change the structure of the ligaments and tunica in ways that make my method less effective. I think it’s best to start with a clean slate, ie, on a test dummy (me) that hasn’t been through any significant lengthening exercises.

I agree about thinking in terms of length instead of weigth - actually, if you can forgive the self-citation, I posted something along this line years ago. What I’m trying to say is that going for a 5% hyper-elongation is risky (I know you pointed out, but repeating won’t hurt). Actually, we don’t know where is the line between plastic deformation and failure - for TA, it could be less than 5% or more. A safer approach could be creeping:
"Viscoelastic Behavior

Viscoelasticity is the time-dependent response of tissues to a load.3 If the stress placed on a ligament is within its elastic range, it is able to spring back after loading. The more elastic the collagen is, the better the ligament is at returning to its original length when a load stress is removed. When a ligament is loaded beyond its elastic range, it enters the plastic (viscous) range. Plasticity is the tendency of a material (or tissue) to permanently deform when the load goes beyond the elastic range.

The relative proportion of elasticity and plastic deformation varies with the stretching conditions, especially the amount and duration of applied force. A constant low load applied to soft tissues over a prolonged period demonstrates the phenomenon called creep. This is the steady deformation that occurs over a period of time. One example of this is the loss of an individual’s height, which occurs during the day due to temporary deformation of the spinal discs.4 When creep goes beyond the tissue’s elastic capability into its plastic range, permanent plastic deformation is the result. "

http://www.dyna micchiropractic … le.php?id=36404

Good luck on your experiment anyway, just be safe.

Hi Marinera,
The more info the better, thank you. Yes you’re absolutely right, 5% or more elongation is risky, especially as it’s unknown if what works for MCL and ACL’s actually works for ligaments and tunica region. So my plan is to plot a stress-strain curve to better determine the linear region (elastic) and therefore plot as precisely as possible the point at which lengthening enters the non-linear region (plastics). A good curve for reference can be found in the book "Functional soft-tissue examination and treatment by manual methods" by W. Hammer (page 19, figure 2-2 from the Google book site http://books.google.com.au ).

The linear region of the plot is an area that exhibits hysteresis but no permanent elongation of the CT. However, these tissues will exhibit creep when constant force is applied over long periods of time. However, the best I can tell from the literature, creep is not permanent, but simply the response-to-force characteristic of connective tissues. See http://www.ptjo urnalonline.net … 12/893.full.pdf and scroll to page 898, see the write-up for figure 6.

So to avoid creep, I want to avoid constant force. Have a look at this graph: and look at Force Relaxation curve. By lowering the force applied during a constant-length stretch, serious damage may be limited without sacrificing the positive effects of the stretch.

To avoid getting too far into the plastic region of the stress-strain curve, I also want to do a cycle of tests, measuring length at the end of each cycle. By monitoring this I can note any change in relaxed length after each cycle. Each cycle I will increase the strain, until such a point where the relaxed length starts to increase - that indicates that the last cycle reached the initial point of plasticity, and tells me the furthest point to perform the main stretch. The main stretch would happen the next day, as there is a hysteresis effect that starts to flatten out the stress-strain curve (hopefully that would apply to the tunica too, as it would be an unknown contributor to the overall resistance, but that remains to be seen).

Thank you and I will keep the forum updated with progress.

Deckker, an extender would be something you should think about, as it allows you to stretch your penis at the desired length so you can go past the 5% mark. There will be some stress relaxation so you may adjust it accordingly.

Also, when hanging let’s say 3 lb at first it will be at x length….after 20 min it could be at x+y length so this could pass that 5% mark depending on your ligament elasticity, a la creep, what Marinera mentioned.

With no documentation or significant knowledge about the properties of ligaments, I’d instinctively imagine that temperature would affect the threshold of elongation for which the plastic deformation starts.

I think it’s worth looking into. Heat could potentially increase the required strain by making the ligament more elastic. However, on the other hand, softening the tissue with heat might also make plastic deformation more easily occur at lower strain. Either case seems plausible to me.

I think that when using heat, it doesn’t increase the elasticity of the ligament, but actually it allows you to use a lower weight to reach creep than what you would have to use to reach creep without using heat.

I’ve always been in kind of the same boat, does anyone or has anyone ONLY done manual stretches and achieved any success? Jelqing is simply not an option. And hanging really isn’t one either.

Do ligaments shorten back to their original length immediately once the stress is removed, if they haven’t crossed the 5% strain? If they stay just slightly elongated for 24 hours or more and you then put stress on them again during your next PE session, the cumulative stretch over a long period might eventually lengthen them beyond the point where they undergo plasticity. This would correlate with the theory that you get temporary gains and only part of them are “cemented”. And would also mean that you don’t have to kill your dick trying to get a 5% strain in a single session :)

A thing to keep in mind when looking at these stress-strain curves, is that they are based on:

a) static experiments: I mean, they don’t do a cumulative, systematic stretching over weeks or months, as Serenity is pointing;

b) they are mostly based on in vitro observations.

What this means, is that they are looking at connective tissue as it was inanimated matter, like a piece of metal. When you apply a stress, systematically, on a bodypart, biologic reactions are more important on the long run then pure physical reactions: biochemicals are released, blood is carried to feed and repair the damaged area, neural adapation has also a role, etc.. If you apply repeteadly a strain on a tendon, are you expecting it will grow?

I doubt, what you’ll have, more likely, will be irritation, then inflammation, then if you go ahead the inflammation could become chronic, then again if you persist you can tear your tendon.

Gentle but systematic stretch seems to be a better option in the vast majority of cases: this is how dancers and gymnasts reach an high degree of extensibilty and flexiblity in their tendons, muscles, ligs and even bones.

To answer your question, Serenity, there are experiments who have shown that when a tension stretches connective tissue beyond its habitual range, connective tissue will return to its original length after about 10 times the duration of the applied load: so, if tension was applied for 1 hour, 10 hours will be required to go back to starting length. Again, this is just what happens to generic connective tissue in vitro.

Yes there are. Try doing a search for ‘stretch*’, ‘only’, or similar words, title thread option.

IIRC, Bib says that is better to not let more than 12 hours between your sets as an optimum approach. Maybe he’s basing his assumption on this.

This is a very important point you raise: the experiments are done in a lab, with the ligament isolated. And the testing is done once (on dead tissue). This is quite different from attempting the same exercise on live penile tissue (with the Tunica, blood vessels, nerves, skin, smooth muscle and other miscellaneous tissues involved). Also, how do we really know how far we’re stretching the Tunica or the ligs? It could be that a 5% stretch on an extender is really only stretching the ligs 1% - maybe the bulk of the stretch is the layers of skin separating from the top of the tunica? It’s impossible to accurately say how much of the strain is actually going to the ligs/tunica.

Because it’s impossible to say what’s happening, precisely, below the skin, you have to skin this cat (pun intended) a different way.

Below I’ve drawn a crude stress-strain curve for a ligament:

Ligament Stress-Strain Curve

STRESS
(FORCE in lbs or kg)
|—————————————————————————————————————————-
|—————————————————————————————————————————-
|—————————————————————————————————————————-
|———————————————————————*——-*——————————————
|———————————————————*—————————*———————————-
|————————————————-*————————————-*——————————-
|———————————————-*——————————————*——————————
|——————————————-*——————————————————————————
|—————————————-*———————————————————————————
|————————————-*————————————————————————————
|———————————-*—————————————————————————————
|——————————-*——————————————————————————————
|—————————-*———————————————————————————————
|————————-*————————————————————————————————
|———————*—————————————————————————————————-
|—————*———————————————————————————————————-
|-*-*-*—————————————————————————————————————-
__________________________________________________ _______________________ STRAIN (% ELONGATION OVER ORIG LENGTH)

|—“Toe’ ——|———Linear——————|——Non-linear——-|—— Failure (snap!)———

Important observations:

1) The Linear section of the curve is the Elastic area, if you elongate to this area and go no further, the ligament will return to it’s original length eventually (this is also the result from creep - creep gives no long term elongation according to research (unless repeated over extremely long periods of time, which is what long-term hanging attempts to achieve).

2) The non-linear section is the Plastic area - damage is being done at a structural level, some fibers (the ones that are tightest) in the ligament bundles are being broken. When released, the ligament stays somewhat longer then it’s original state. This maybe permanent, but most likely the repair process will shorten the ligament unless some exercising is done to maintain the length increase while healing is occurring (healing happens over a period of weeks/months, but peaks within 48hrs). So an ADS or some other low-level traction during the healing process needs to be used.

3) Now, deal with the curve. It’s the only data you have. There is nothing else really that you can point to and say “that’s a fact” — but the shape of the curve is critical. My experiment (if you can call it that because there’s just one test subject - me) is to plot a Stress-Strain curve and see what it looks like. If there is a linear section and a non-linear section, it would be justifiable to think that the linear region will produce no long-term results, and the non-linear region will. Therefore, don’t waste time/effort in the linear region, get the elongation to the non-linear region and then repeatedly (daily maybe) stretch to the linear region only in order to hold those gains over a period of weeks. Then, once healed, do a stretch to the non-linear region again, repeat everything again, and again and again. The hope is that there is no ‘memory’ effect because you’re only in the non-linear region once over a period of weeks (or months) and the rest of the time you’re just holding the gains until healing is complete. If correct, the potential gains could be nearly unlimited (not really, there are blood-vessels and nerves which may not lengthen at the same rate and they could limit the ultimate length gain).

Many of you will point out that the healing process of connective tissues and tunica-tissue never completely regains the original strength of the tissue. This is true, but is it important? If your ligs aren’t as strong, but are much longer, is this an ok trade-off for you? (Ask the guys who have them cut, that’s a 100% loss of strength!). But unlike lig-cutting, this process also focuses on stretching the tunica. It’s the combination that could allow serious length gains over a long period of time.

The stretcher that I’m designing needs to meet some lofty specs: it must be able to measure elongation precisely at all points during the exercise, and must be able to measure force (stress) just as precisely in order to create as accurate a graph as possible. Time to go to the lab!

How about comments, suggestions?