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A small question about isolation.

A small question about isolation.

Greetings! :D

I was wondering if it is really important to isolate all the muscles of the pelvic floor when you do the kegel or reverse kegel or you when you just delay ejaculation. What do You think?

I know that westla mentioned that there is no reason to “master” the technique of flexing the cremaster muscle.
What about IC? It serves to improve erection but does nothing to delay ejaculation.

Another question. What do you concentrate on when you do the kegel and the reverse kegel? On pulling up your perineum (closer to scrotum or anus?)? Or maybe you rather concentrate on your pubic bone and pulling the penis inwards? I must admit it’s still a bit wondering for me because I can’t isolate the squeeze good enough to be sure that this is absolutely the BC, not the PC or IC. And as far as I can delay ejaculation with this I unfortunately loose my erection so I’m probably doing rather the reverse kegel than kegel (by the way - which kegel serves to last longer? The opinions of people seems to vary.).

Thanks for taking my questions seriously and sorry for any eventual language mistakes (I’m not born English ;-)


Last edited by Matt356 : 04-25-2007 at .

I’m wondering about those:

1. Maybe it’s not really important to pull up testis with cremaster but what about RELAXING cremaster not to allow testis to get closer to the body? When you get highly aroused balls get closer to the body so the semen has shorter distance to “travel out”. To prevent this, you can pull down your scrotum with your hands to delay ejaculation. Why not to relax the muscle then?

2. The reverse kegels. Many of You say that it’s like pushing muscles around your anus. Only one person wrote about using muscles in frontal wall of your abdomen over the penis. It’s probably the pyramidalis muscle and it lies in front of bladder. If you follow this way you get in to conclusion: If kegel stops the flow of urine but accelerate the ejaculation the reverse kegel (by flexing in the pyramidalis) pressures the bladder to activate the process of urinating. And as far as you can’t do one during another it seems to be quite simple and natural way to control one by another. Try it! It really works. Also when you are having sex and you concentrate while thrusting on pressing this part of abdomen, you are going to see how easy it works.

3. The regular kegels. The squeeze appears if front of the anus but causes the penis to be pulled back and down into the body. It is said that woman should pull up their perineum whereas man should rather tighten their ischial bones together to the center of the body. What do You think?

I would be appreciate for any suggestions you may share.

Originally Posted by Matt356
I was wondering if it is really important to isolate all the muscles of the pelvic floor when you do the kegel or reverse kegel or you when you just delay ejaculation. What do You think?

First of all, a “reverse kegel” is done by relaxing all pelvic muscles. There’s no contracting done and nothing to isolate. Some people talk about “pushing” things, like having a bowel movement, but that involves the abdominal muscles and has no real effect on the pelvis. The point of a reverse kegel is to stop all muscles from contracting.

As far as isolating things when doing kegels, I think it’s difficult for most people to do that. Many of the muscles are stimulated by the same nerve so there’s little chance that you could make only one contract. To delay ejaculation you want to contract the bulbocavernosus (BC, also called bulbospongiosus) muscle to prevent it from ejecting semen from the urethra. By continuing to hold the contraction you fatigue the muscle and lessen its ability to contract and eject semen during orgasm.

Quote
I know that westla mentioned that there is no reason to “master” the technique of flexing the cremaster muscle.
What about IC? It serves to improve erection but does nothing to delay ejaculation.

The ischiocavernosus muscle is innervated by the perineal branch of the pudendal nerve, as is the bulbocavernosus. As noted above, I don’t think it’s possible to isolate it during conscious contraction.

Quote
Another question. What do you concentrate on when you do the kegel and the reverse kegel? On pulling up your perineum (closer to scrotum or anus?)? Or maybe you rather concentrate on your pubic bone and pulling the penis inwards? I must admit it’s still a bit wondering for me because I can’t isolate the squeeze good enough to be sure that this is absolutely the BC, not the PC or IC.

Again, I don’t think it’s possible to isolate any one muscle and it’s not important. If you’re able to contract the BC (felt between the scrotum and the anus) then that’s the one you need to concentrate on (even though contracting the others won’t hurt or help). The reverse kegel is simply relaxing everything.

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And as far as I can delay ejaculation with this I unfortunately loose my erection so I’m probably doing rather the reverse kegel than kegel (by the way - which kegel serves to last longer? The opinions of people seems to vary.).

You are correct that individuals vary and their ability to delay ejaculation varies as well. Some can do it well, some poorly, and some not at all. Losing the erection usually means that ejaculation has occurred. If nothing is coming out, perhaps it’s going retrograde into your bladder. Or, you may be someone who loses his erection with orgasm regardless of whether or not you ejaculate.

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1. Maybe it’s not really important to pull up testis with cremaster but what about RELAXING cremaster not to allow testis to get closer to the body? When you get highly aroused balls get closer to the body so the semen has shorter distance to “travel out”. To prevent this, you can pull down your scrotum with your hands to delay ejaculation. Why not to relax the muscle then?

It’s unlikely that many men have direct control over their cremaster muscles. The testicles moving closer to the body has nothing to do with how far semen has to travel. Sperm is made in the testes, but moves out into the ducts when mature. The sperm does not come directly from the testes during ejaculation. If you pull on your scrotum to delay ejaculation the reason ejaculation is delayed is probably more from the sensation of the pulling than anything else, including how close the testicles are to the body.

Quote
2. The reverse kegels. Many of You say that it’s like pushing muscles around your anus. Only one person wrote about using muscles in frontal wall of your abdomen over the penis. It’s probably the pyramidalis muscle and it lies in front of bladder.

The pyramidalis muscle is part of the abdominal wall and is outside of the abdominal and pelvic cavities. Contracting it has no effect on the bladder.

Quote
If you follow this way you get in to conclusion: If kegel stops the flow of urine but accelerate the ejaculation the reverse kegel (by flexing in the pyramidalis) pressures the bladder to activate the process of urinating. And as far as you can’t do one during another it seems to be quite simple and natural way to control one by another. Try it! It really works. Also when you are having sex and you concentrate while thrusting on pressing this part of abdomen, you are going to see how easy it works.

Doing a kegel does not stop the flow of urine directly. Telling someone to stop urine flow is a way of helping them find the BC muscle, but the BC does not control urine flow. Urine leaves the bladder when a ring muscle (sphincter) around the bladder neck is contracted. Contracting the sphincter opens the path for urine (the ring gets larger). In its relaxed state, the bladder sphincter muscle is closed (but not contracting).

You don’t need to push, bear down or contract anything to do a “reverse kegel.” You just consciously relax the pelvic muscles.

Quote
3. The regular kegels. The squeeze appears if front of the anus but causes the penis to be pulled back and down into the body. It is said that woman should pull up their perineum whereas man should rather tighten their ischial bones together to the center of the body. What do You think?

Kegels in women use a different muscle. They contract the pubococcygeus (PC) muscle which indeed does pull up on the perineum. Men contract the bulbocavernosus/bulbospongiosus muscle which is felt in front of the anus and which does pull the penis into the body. The ischium is part of the pelvis and cannot be moved, so I don’t know what to say about “tightening their ischial bones together.”

To our Newbie members.

Here are two nice posts by Matt356, about 24 hours apart, which illustrate some very good forum techniques.

He obviously searched and read before asking his questions. He explained what he knew about the subject and discussed what others had said. He was patient when no one responded. He apologized for his excellent English. :)

Some of you could learn a lot from him when it comes to posting questions.

Thanks for reading.

Originally Posted by westla90069
You don’t need to push, bear down or contract anything to do a “reverse kegel.” You just consciously relax the pelvic muscles.

When I do reverse kegels to relax my pelvic muslces, I find that it helps to “push”. (I use to have involuntary kegels whenever I had any sexual stimulation, but I fixed that by doing reverse kegels instead, and it really helped to push because I couldn’t relax my muscles without pushing) I noticed that because I was pushing, I couldnt contract my BC muscle and it helped me “truly” relax my pelvic muscles. It seems like you don’t need to push to do a reverse kegel, but its easier if you do. I can do reverse kegels without pushing, but I think it helps me at least. Westla does it really matter if you push or not, as long as it works for you?

Reverse kegels help me relax, and eventually last longer, but I have never noticed lasting longer with normal kegels, just shorter :( .

No, I don’t think it makes any difference as long as the end result is the relaxation.

Thanks westla, you are really my mentor and I’m amazed with your patience while explain the same things for people who ask over and over about the same things ;-)
"Tightening their ischial bones together.” - yes, I know how stupid it sounds. I came across this one in a book of Benita Cantieni “Exercise for the pelvic floor” and it was also difficult for me to understand as same as for example “moving your navel towards your sternum” but anyway..

I want to share some experience about Kegels and the reverse ones. As Giant said - it’s difficult just to relax while reversing - when it gets really “hot” that’s why pushing may help a little.

The last thing about kegel is the explanation of my question about isolation ;-)
Westla, I’m physiotherapist and I’m much aware of all the muscles and mechanism of human physiology. It’s just a bit of a question for me in what way you squeeze your bc. If I read that it’s felt at the perineum, between scrotum and my anus, well.. I can imagine about ten (!) sorts of muscle contraction it this area and each one of them is going to be felt threw skin and will cause my penis to be pulled in.
So far the best I figured out is something similar to “internal jelqing” that encircles the base of my internal penis and squeeze it to the front. Using this I can have sex for three hours without ejaculation and loosing my erection. You think I’m close to the final answer?

Thanks for your time and understanding westla.

I couldn’t understand your internal jelqing, but that sounds pretty crazy, 3 hours wow.

Matt356 - You’re welcome. I’m always willing to help those who help themselves.

Quote
If I read that it’s felt at the perineum, between scrotum and my anus, well.. I can imagine about ten (!) sorts of muscle contraction it this area and each one of them is going to be felt threw skin and will cause my penis to be pulled in.

I’m sure you’ve seen this article: Locating the bc muscle

Notice in the “Perineal Muscles” illustration that the bulbocavernosus/bulbospongiosus and ischiocavernosus muscles are the largest of the various muscles in the male perineum. The BC surrounds the bulb of the penis and is herringbone shaped which causes it’s contraction to be linear along the axis of the penis/urethra. The ICs surround the corpora cavernosa directly. So the combined contractions of the BC and ICs, is what pulls the penis into the body. Other perineal muscles are smaller, at the “wrong” angle, or not attached in some way to the inner penile structures.

Quote
So far the best I figured out is something similar to “internal jelqing” that encircles the base of my internal penis and squeeze it to the front. Using this I can have sex for three hours without ejaculation and loosing my erection. You think I’m close to the final answer?

If you can go for three hours I’d say you have already found the answer! I, too, am not clear on this “internal jelqing.” Is it manipulating things from the perineum with your fingers/hands? What part of the inner penis do you think you’re working on? Others may be interested if you can clarify. Thanks.

I called it “internal jelqing” because it feels very similar What you do with your hands around your penis while exercising, I do the same only by muscle contraction around the bulb of penis. It’s like squeezing a tooth paste out of the tube and penis forwards to the meatus. It is this kind of feeling when you accelerates your stream of urine and with little tension of your “bottom” muscles and those around base of your penis you try to “close” the urethra but you do it slowly.

As far as I read really a huge amount of posts on this forum I was wondering from anatomical point of view in which direction does the tension of BC goes. I want to separate facts from rubbish and trust me that on the net there is more opposite information that you may expect.
What kind of sensations you feel doing kegels? Some people write about pulling your testis and the base of penis up towards the navel. Other suggest it’s kind of “forward directed tension” because BC pushes out that “few last drops of urine” and moves blood to the CS. Yet there are people who suggest you should push them down to increase the pressure in abdomen also to push out urine. Finally You (and I respect your opinion much) say about contraction to be linear along the axis of the penis/urethra. If the penis is to hide, then it’s the tug-back so a movement backwards but then it’ś not felt at the place where penis enters to the body but closer to the anus..
I hope now you understand why I’m a little bit confused because off all this “advices” and as far as you are man with experience westla, I believe you may give me some little help with details. I would be appreciate.

“-I feel the “squeeze” A LOT further “forward” now.just behind the base of the penis and not mainly close to the anus as before.
-I kind of agree with Tube, it seems like the harder you contract the BC muscle it will result in a contraction of the PC or sphincter.
-If you want to concentrate on the BC try a light contraction that starts just behind your scrotum. Easy and gentle will usually involve only the BC. It’s the fast or heavy duty squeezes that tend to involve more muscles.
BC muscle. When flaccid, it just moves in and out. Well, actually just in, then it returns to it’s normal position when the BC is relaxed.
-Contract your flaccid penis using your BC muscle which is attached to the inner penis you have located inside your body. You should feel a quick smooth internal kind of muscle flex inside your body at the base of the penis where the pubes begin, that is the tugback feeling some talk about here.”

Those are some of the post I found on this forum while searching. Thanks to them and also many others I got the picture and clarification of the idea. Also from my own experience and the anatomy knowledge I know that penis from the pubic bone goes down and towards the anus. When You “bonce” it during erection, you can notice tug-back and also the head of the penis will move towards the navel. But still, I can pull back my penis from both sides (and I guess it’s IC) I can pull it down towards the end of scrotum and also pull my scrotum and base of penis upwards and I’m still not sure which sensation is correct. Now I’m one step from the final answer and I hope you people will help me to find it out ;-) I count on You!


Last edited by Matt356 : 04-27-2007 at .

Originally Posted by Matt356
I do the same only by muscle contraction around the bulb of penis. It’s like squeezing a tooth paste out of the tube and penis forwards to the meatus. It is this kind of feeling when you accelerates your stream of urine and with little tension of your “bottom” muscles and those around base of your penis you try to “close” the urethra but you do it slowly.

That is the Kegel maneuver. Exactly.

Quote
What kind of sensations you feel doing kegels? Some people write about pulling your testis and the base of penis up towards the navel. Other suggest it’s kind of “forward directed tension” because BC pushes out that “few last drops of urine” and moves blood to the CS. Yet there are people who suggest you should push them down to increase the pressure in abdomen also to push out urine. Finally You (and I respect your opinion much) say about contraction to be linear along the axis of the penis/urethra. If the penis is to hide, then it’s the tug-back so a movement backwards but then it’ś not felt at the place where penis enters to the body but closer to the anus.

The BC muscle is the muscle that surrounds the bulb of the penis. Its herringbone configuration is what helps it “milk” semen (and urine) toward the meatus. Think of it as two sets of rollers that are fixed in place and the bulb (with urethra inside) as a flexible tube sitting between these two series of rollers (one on each side). The rollers begin to move together at the inner most part and each set of rollers in the line contracts a fraction of a second after the one behind it. As they squeeze they tend to pull this flexible tube through them toward the inside. Is that clear? The urethra, bulb and other parts of the external penis are pulled in, but the urethra is squeezed in a sequential manner from back to front so that any liquid in it is forced forward. If I had the time and skills I’d create an animation to show how this works.

Quote
“-I feel the “squeeze” A LOT further “forward” now.just behind the base of the penis and not mainly close to the anus as before.
-I kind of agree with Tube, it seems like the harder you contract the BC muscle it will result in a contraction of the PC or sphincter.
-If you want to concentrate on the BC try a light contraction that starts just behind your scrotum. Easy and gentle will usually involve only the BC. It’s the fast or heavy duty squeezes that tend to involve more muscles.

Yes. A light contraction can isolate the BC, but as I said before it doesn’t matter if the other muscles contract or not at the same time. Since the IC and BC are both innervated by the same branch of the pudendal nerve, it’s likely that both are contracting even with the “light” squeeze. No matter. The BC will get the exercise it needs during the kegel.

Quote
BC muscle. When flaccid, it just moves in and out. Well, actually just in, then it returns to it’s normal position when the BC is relaxed.
-Contract your flaccid penis using your BC muscle which is attached to the inner penis you have located inside your body. You should feel a quick smooth internal kind of muscle flex inside your body at the base of the penis where the pubes begin, that is the tugback feeling some talk about here.

Correct.

Quote
Those are some of the post I found on this forum while searching. Thanks to them and also many others I got the picture and clarification of the idea. Also from my own experience and the anatomy knowledge I know that penis from the pubic bone goes down and towards the anus. When You “bonce” it during erection, you can notice tug-back and also the head of the penis will move towards the navel. But still, I can pull back my penis from both sides (and I guess it’s IC) I can pull it down towards the end of scrotum and also pull my scrotum and base of penis upwards and I’m still not sure which sensation is correct. Now I’m one step from the final answer and I hope you people will help me to find it out ;-) I count on You!

You are doing the kegel exercise correctly. It’s not really necessary to know which muscles are contracting and how much. Just finding the BC muscle and contracting it on a regular basis is enough knowledge for most guys.

GREAT thanks! Very clear and convincing. I’m impressed westla. That’s all I wanted to know.

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