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No More Porn For Me

Originally Posted by paulski82
Now I realize that this might not be the most popular idea on a forum like Thunders, but I’ve come to the realisation that porn has significant negative affects. I’ve made a decision not to watch porn any more. The main driver for this was that I pretty much lost my libido. I don’t get morning wood. I don’t get spontaneous erections. I don’t feel horny without porn. I’ve had trouble getting hard when I’m with women. I can dance with a hot girl pressed up against me and not feel anything physically. I’m cerebrally aware that the girl is hot, but nothing happens downstairs.

I put this down to prolonged, excessive use of porn to the exclusion of sex with women. I won’t go into the depths of depravity of my porn addiction (and yes it is an addiction), but suffice it to say that for years, I was jerking off to porn at least once a day and for multiple orgasms. Over time it became really hard to get off without porn and it ruined my sex life. I’ve been doing a lot of reading and I put it down to porn addiction. I am addicted to porn.

Anyone who doesn’t believe porn is addictive is severely deluding themselves. That’s not to say that everyone who watches porn becomes addicted, but you do run that risk. Not everyone who drinks becomes an alcoholic, but some people do and the results can be devastating. The research I’ve been doing shows that porn is unquestionably addictive and is very similar to drugs in the effect it has on the brain. Brain scans comparing cocaine use to porn use are nearly identical. Porn hijacks the brains reward circuitry, which is fueled by dopamine, in a very similar way to certain drugs like cocaine and amphetamines.

If you want to read more about porn and its effects on the brain, check out this site http://www.reuniting.info and there are many other well researched sites out there.

I’m not saying porn is all bad. I’m not religious. I’m not a feminist. However, I believe that porn causes significant problems, even for those who aren’t addicted. Here’s my list of the evils of porn:

(1) Porn exploits women. Do not kid yourselves. I’ve done a lot of reading on the lives of female porn stars and after you’ve read a number, you start to see a very familiar pattern. Basically it’s something like: girl starts out like any other normal girl but lives in an emotionally distant family. Often these girls come from quite strict religious backgrounds. Usually the father figure is completely unable to show love towards his daughter. Girl hits puberty and falls out with parents. The rift grows and the girl acts out more and more. Girl discovers men. Girl discovers they can get the attention Daddy doesn’t provide by using sex to manipulate men. Parents can’t handle it. Parents kick girl out of home. Girl is on the street. Girl meets pimp. Girl turns to prostitution. Girl gets at least one STI. Girl turns to porn because she believes it’s safer and the money is better. It’s not. Girl continues her descent into oblivion and gets addicted to drugs, dies, maybe both. Sometimes the girl gets out of the lifestyle and then usually becomes a born again Christian. The most repetitive theme I noticed was this. THESE WOMEN HATE MEN. They are doing porn to take money, drugs, property, anything they can from men and they are allowing themselves to be exploited to do it, but to them it’s worth it. They look in the camera and they smile and they tease and they moan with lust, but THEY FUCKING LOATH YOU. They have utter contempt for the men who are watching and ultimately paying their wages.

(2) Porn exploits men. It used to be titty mags, then came VHS, then came the Internet. The Internet brought 24/7 unlimited access to more porn than any one man could hope to consume in his entire life. Porn is becoming more violent and mysogynistic (hardcore) to keep fueling mens desires as they develop a tolerance for harder and freakier stuff. Porn movies outsell Hollywood movies by at least 2 orders of magnitude. The porn industry has become very slick. They have worked out how to make porn more and more addictive and men are buying it, downloading it, watching it in epidemic numbers. The porn industry has figured out men’s vulnerability to porn and is exploiting this as much as they can. Men’s brains are wired to like images and movies of a variety of naked females, in a way that women’s brains simply are not. I see this as exploitation. Whether you admit it or not, you’re paying for porn. My you’re not paying directly with site memberships, but you’re paying in bandwidth costs, you’re paying in your free time and, probably most alarmingly, you paying with your libido (maybe a little, maybe a lot).

(3) Porn can make men insecure about their bodies, especially the size of their penis. When I started watching porn I was convinced I was small, when I’m above average at 6.5” x 6.5”. No woman has ever said I was small. I was never teased in the locker room. I got that idea from porn. The reality is, anything above a legitimate NPB 7” is very big.

(4) Porn is bad sex ed. Kids are being exposed to porn earlier and earlier, before sex ed. Classes and before they have real experiences with real women. This gives skewed expectations. Porn is not realistic. Generally, women don’t like rough sex. They don’t like DP. They don’t like jizz in their eyes. They don’t like being tag teamed. They don’t orgasm just from blowing guys. They can’t magically take a 7+ inch cock up the ass without flinching. They don’t like being man-handled. They don’t like being treated like pieces of meat. OK, these are generalisations, some women like this stuff and some women like it occasionally to spice things up. But generally, this stuff is all bullshit. These girls are actresses and the second that camera goes off, they go throw up in the corner and then come back and say, “where’s my fucking cheque?”.

(5) Porn detracts from men’s ability to appreciate real women. Maybe it’s on only a little, so you don’t appreciate your partner’s naked body as much anymore. Or maybe it’s a lot and you’re like a lot of kids now who can’t even get hard unless it’s front of screen with a tube of lube in one hand and their dick in the other. I used to get butterflies at the hint of a woman’s g-string on the bus. Now it takes horse-fucking-midget porn. There’s something wrong with that (I’m exaggerating but you know what I mean). The natural female form is stunningly beautiful, but porn is training us to only like orange tanned, asshole bleached, fake tittied, vaginally rejuvenated, rakes with shit for brains. That is not a good thing gentlemen.

I used to believe that porn was just awesome entertainment with no down side. Now I know I was wrong. I choose not to watch porn any more. Some guys can watch porn and experience no negative affects or only minor ones. I’m not that guy. I’m not saying all porn is bad and no guy should watch it, just don’t fool yourself. There’s an evil side to porn and you should acknowledge the bargain you are making with yourself. I’m addicted to porn and I need to reset my brain. So I’m abstaining from porn and masturbation for at least 2 months and then I’ll see where I’m at. That’s no porn, no erotic stories, no lingerie catalogues, no magazines, no jerking off for 2 months. I’ve just passed week 4 and I’m already starting to notice changes. This could be the best thing I’ve ever done for my sexual health.

I’ll let you all know how it goes in a month or so. All comments welcome. It would be cool to hear from guys who have had similar experiences and have turned their backs on the porn so I know I’m not alone here. :-P

Thanks for reading.

Completely agree with this, porn makes men much more insecure about themselves. Camera angles help paint the imagine that these porn stars have 10” penis when in reality there only about 6 or 7. Personally I need to stop watching it and see the difference.

Great thread!

Let me just say I’m jumping in on this one with all of you (whether you’ve posted or lurked.)

Similar story for me; years of stimulation combined with stagnant (that’s a polite way of saying it) progress with women in the real world. Interestingly I’ve had periods lasting usually lasting a couple months where I had no interest in watching porn, but slowly I’ve crept back. At those points I should’ve attempted to make it with women, but the other usual factors stopped that [fear!] Rationalizations that I “needed release” and because I didn’t develop my ability to talk, etc with women this was all I had. Same feeling of emptiness, embarrassment and frustration and it isn’t satisfying me.

I’m currently on day 7 and today I looked on Craigslist to read the adds. No point equivocating about it; I know it’s a form of stimulation I no longer want. Thankfully I didn’t look at any pictures. I would also say that today and yesterday are the first times I’ve had to really use will power to resist. Until yesterday I’ve changed my routine so that I’m not using the computer so much. I don’t own/watch TV and replaced that with the internet (another story as looking at screens all day isn’t life.)

I’m a part-time student and am currently writing a paper so computer usage is necessary. I want practical steps to aid me, not just willpower and because of the old nature of this machine porn blockers aren’t workable. Writing this publicly is a form of accountability so I may chime in from time-to-time with my thoughts/progress.

Don’t necessarily need anyone to comment on this it’s more therapeutic. I started a diary last year and have recently updated it near daily with thoughts, opinions, aspirations etc.

Glad I’ve started now as I’m quite excited to see what progress/development (however you want to phrase it) I’ll have made by May onwards. The idea of looking at all these delicious women and being compelled into action (!) is quite enthusing. Real life beats fantasy every time.

Want to commend and encourage others who are trying to help themselves. As one friend put it in the book of life why would you want to read the same chapter over and over again? Aren’t you interested to see what happens next? Most of us didn’t consciously choose porn, but technology/culture etc made it available, permissible (in a way)

If you lapse understand the process; don’t beat yourself up, just rebuild and start again.

Thanks.

I have now gone 97 days without porn. It was affecting me adversely both physically and psychologically. It was also taking up too much time, causing me to be unproductive.

I have never really approved of porn for many reasons including ethical ones (your ethics may differ; Not trying to start a debate). But it’s so addictive, like so many things that are bad for us.

Fortunately I didn’t reach the point of erectile dysfunction, or watching a tranny get pounded by a horse (or some other super weird stuff). But I know I could have ended up there. Because, constant porn causes you to require more and more extreme stimulation, as your mind gets used to the more “ordinary” stuff.

I have almost slipped up on a couple of occasions, but never to the point of watching hardcore porn - I’m talking browsing half-naked girls on Instagram. But I don’t want to do even that.

I keep a sticky note on the wall above my computer screen, to keep me accountable. I put a mark on it for each day I go without porn. When I look up now and see 97 marks, I am even more motivated to not lose my streak.

Nevertheless, if I ever lose my streak, I know to just start a new streak; Not beat myself up over it.

Good luck to all who are trying to reclaim their minds from porn.

Porn has killed my confidence. It’s has been the number one contributor to my low self esteem.

It’s crazy because with the limited number of women I have been with prior to getting married they always said the same thing. That I was the biggest they were with. Even my wife said im the thickest she’s been with. I just came to the belief that they tell us these things to keep us happy and not concerned with something that they themselves aren’t concerned with.

My wife watches porn, and honestly it does make me self conscious and feel inferior. Id never want her to give up something she enjoys doing just because of my imagined slight.

But I am going to commit to no longer watching porn unless it’s with her.

Starting now. Good luck to everyone else who’s on the same plane.


My Progress Log With Pictures!

NBPEL: 6 inches MSEG: 6.25 inches

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Update

Hey

I would say I’m at the 14 day mark. Reason I’m not talking affirmatively is because although unintentional I’ve viewed some electronic stimulation. Ironically one picture here & a newspaper page that had one of those ‘celebrity bikini’ stories (I didn’t open it.) It [the picture here] was tiny and I straight away disabled pictures, but still..

I’d also like to ask others advise. Although we’re all different, have different dispositions, life history, physiological reactions etc I wonder what threshold people have for electronic stimulation and what they find acceptable? Me? I’ve been acting on the basis of complete disengagement with electronic stimulation and that’d include Instagram, etc (as eponymous mentioned.) Reason is that I find it unsatisfying. It’s actually simultaneously boring and has a sedative effect on me. Barring the early days (talking about.. Geeze 15+ yrs ago as a teen) I’ve found diminished arousal/excitement from porn. Even in my self proclaimed juvenile state of development with woman I’ve found talking and being in the presence of women (especially if attractive to me) much more satisfying, energizing and exciting than sitting at my computer scrolling through endless pictures of girls. I decided to ‘re-frame’ the nervousness as ‘excitement’ years ago.

@ Eponymous. Would appreciate if you could share some of your ups and downs, what happened psychologically and physically. You’re married right? I’m not but still would like to know what’s happened for you so far. Porn abstinence is one thing but what else is going on with you? I’d have to guess p.e because we’re on this site, but more intimacy with your wife? Increased ‘carnal’ passion for her? Increasing penile sensitivity? Just to feel that you choose how you behave or spend your time and energy? Etc

@Jagger. Yep, that happened to me too. This was over a decade ago and many of the same ‘actors’ are still around, but I find it amusing I used to believe the 12 inch ‘MonsterCock’ advertising. Now, I couldn’t care less. Just ain’t interested in hindering myself by dwelling on nonsense. Porn covers a wide area; I find ‘professional’ porn banal and (ironically considering the site we’re on) the genital focus is reductive to me. The ritual of positions, angles, ‘glossy’ lighting, lack of intimacy (I.e kissing/caressing, etc,) usually culminating in ejaculation over the body bores me. Baring occasional periods when the energy/desire couldn’t be dissipated I’d left that [porn] behind. I could tell that I was reaching for something else when I noticed that I preferred ‘amateur’ or ‘candid’ pictures because it seemed more ‘real.’ I also tried to justify it because I had particular parts of women that I ‘appreciated’ so needed/wanted to see pictures of that, join forms in fellowship with other like-minded people, etc.

Other issues are that I would like to get away from an intellectual appreciation of women into something more ‘primal.’ Although I know some women appreciate a version of the battle of the sexes where men are sophisticated enough to play with them. There are hints of it and like many men I’m sex obsessed (probably sounds better to say ‘focused.’) I would like to sublimate this sexual desire into productive works, but also into sexual experiences. It’s taken a lot to admit that I’m a sexual being, that I desire women etc. Ironically that consciously denied impulse made me sex obsessed whilst also sublimating that drive into pornography and masturbation which frustrated, demotivated and depressed me.

I think that I’ll have to work on a few things at the same time. I understand intellectually that I can talk to women, am not (necessarily!) irritating them, etc, but I’ll work to become more comfortable doing that. My recommendation to any men going through something similar is to just talk when the opportunity presents itself. All the better if there isn’t some potential romantic/sexual aspect. I started this consciously a few years ago and it’s been beneficial. Procrastination meant I lapsed on this improved behavior, but I’ve still made progress. All you gotta do is talk. E.g ask a woman at the till in the supermarket how she is, what the weather’s like, how you’re gonna try a new recipe, etc. If you usually renew books online, maybe go to the library, get a little conversation going with the lady at the counter. If you use the phone a lot at work, you can start with a ‘how are you?’ etc. It’s great and people are receptive to you taking an interest in them. There are more examples but I’m sure you understand where I’m at with this.

Other thing is that I need to be ‘embodied.’ I cycle to work, but still feel disconnected from my body. Keep on saying that I want to start rock climbing, or something like that. I’m fascinated with woman’s bodies, but what about my own? Sex has mostly been disappointing to me and I believe I’m to blame. First thing is to reorient myself to arousal from women in the ‘real world’. I’m also working towards shifting the emphasis to non-ejaculatory orgasm. Another issue is my fantasizing I.e daydreaming. I think it’s taking me out of being present focused. This is different from saying there are things I’ve always wanted to try that I haven’t yet (the other category of sexual fantasy.)

There’s more but I’ll leave it there for now.

I need to get on this, addicted here :/


Starting 4/15/15 7.3 BPEL and 4.9 MEG

Super lazy and inconsistent :(

@Hobie,

No, I’m not married actually - and single for the past year and a half as well, which is when my porn habit started up (again).

I have been working from home for the past couple years. I started spending hours per day looking at porn and masturbating. Justifying to myself that it was good for PE (which it is for many) and that I was practicing edging. So it was wasting my time, making me very unproductive. It was physically exhaustive. I’m an exercise fiend, but porn and masturbation consumed the energy I had.

Furthermore, it helped me into a reclusive mindset, where I wouldn’t want to talk to other people.

It was killing my libido. I could still manage to get aroused if I tried hard enough. But I’m usually the kind of person that only needs an erotic thought to get aroused. But more and more, I was needing porn.

At the same time, the porn I was watching was getting less and less stimulating. It was getting harder to maintain an erection, and harder to orgasm. I never ventured too far into the weirder stuff though, some things were still just too weird for me.

I even started to get to become fans of a few of the famous female porn stars, knowing about their lives outside porn, thinking how “normal” they were. I’m sorry if that or anything else that follows comes off as judgmental to anyone; It is me using my judgement, but I’m not condemning anyone.

So that’s how it was affecting me personally.

The ethical aspect is a big reason why I shouldn’t have been watching in the first place. I always thought it was wrong. The porn industry thrives on peoples psychopathology; insecurities, delusions. It’s teaching this psychopathology to children and adults alike.

The cliche’s are true; it’s objectifying women, and it is exploitative.

Rape is becoming a pandemic right now, even in developed countries, because our whole culture is diminishing women to mere receptacles for cum. So boys don’t even learn to speak to girls before they start jerking off to them in porn. So the whole concept of them becomes about sex.

I wouldn’t want my daughter (I don’t have any yet) or sister (I have many) to be a porn star. I would tell them it is wrong - because that is what I believe. Why then am I watching it?

@Hobie, This is the second part of my reply.

Apart from putting away porn completely, I try to stay active with my work and other interests, including working out. I get out there and meet real women, and get excited by real women - that’s important.

Also, the best change I have made to my life in recent times is that I started to practice Taoist mediation. I’m studying the works of Master Mantak Chia.

Taoist mediation has been fantastic for my libido, mental health, and even my sexual stamina. Let me reiterate, MY LIBIDO IS THROUGH THE ROOF!. Remember when I said I was finding it hard to orgasm even with porn? Now I can give myself multiple orgasms, without ejaculating. Even without “mental porn”. Sometimes I do use my imagination to give myself a boost. But I’m aiming for the day when I don’t even need that.

I haven’t mastered it yet, still early on my journey. But the progress has been encouraging so far.


Last edited by eponymous : 03-21-2016 at .

Next Chapter

Everyone OK?

**I think I used the word ‘ironic’ too many times! Probably in the wrong context too**

Just checking in with the Thunders Team. I’d say I’m at day on day 23 which is surprising. Again a few times on forms (sports/videogames which I don’t even play anymore!) and seeing avatars etc. Also showed my flatmates (soon to be ex) girlfriend a picture of a women who resembles his ex (she asked!) Again non-explicit but I [I]felt[I] I violated my own guidelines.

Anyway, depends how you define it but I keep using the phrase “electronic stimulation” whereas I mean visual/pictorial representation of women in sexual/sensual/suggestive situations, pose etc. This’d be internet: porn (softcore, etc,) picture sites (explicitly sexual or not,) erotic literature, forums, magazines etc. I’d also include TV. Don’t own one but visiting my sister I’d watched some TV and found myself curiously interested in the woman. Generally I’ve found actresses, TV presenters etc generally sexless, but maybe if you go months without watching the box while trying to ‘detox’ from sexualized content that’d heighten my responsive to stimuli. The fact I was questioning this myself is a good sign.

Fantasizing is a part of the problem and I’ve reduced it and am cognizant of this. I used to go to bed every single night dreaming of sex. Now? Have to catch myself, switch things up. It’s improving, incrementally.

@ Narukami: Man, I say you should get in on this. It can be hard -I myself had stops and starts in the past- but this has been a significant time for me. I don’t know whether porn is the source facilitating other problems, but it was very, very significant in retarding what I term ’ my development.’

@ Eponymous. Yes sir. Your description of your reclusiveness, etc mirrors mine, for me that ended 1-1.5 yrs ago. At the time I was unemployed and in quite a deep depression, but I didn’t want to acknowledge the problem. We’re all probably more aware than we know; I remember thinking (and saying) to myself years ago that sexual frustration would be the defining aspect of my life. I also tried to bury that diagnosis and attribute depression/listlessness to other facets of life. I am (or was) a guy that always felt resentful and frustrated by my attraction to women, their ‘control’ of me.

I do want to ask you [eponymous] what the process has been like in terms of anticipating and countering the ups and downs? I’ve tried to ‘reboot’ before and just hadn’t exhausted my current mode of life. Now it’s at the end of this stage; I’ve explored [wasted] all I can living like this so I’m compelled to move to a new stage. Did you have days of frustration? Practical steps to counter it? I think a (semi) regimented lifestyle would be useful for me. Usefully I have a new term of study starting soon. This week I’m a try out rock climbing! There’s been a mini-surge of activity- me doing needed things. Regimentation in terms of writing down what I need to do tomorrow (usually 1/2 before bed) then crossing it off as it’s done- I can see the accomplishments. This is still a work in progress.

Other miscellaneous thoughts:

Since quitting porn I’ve recently more comfortable around people [women] with increased confidence. I mentioned just talking to women and I have a great situation; my flatmate sprung his girlfriend moving in about 5 months ago. At first I tried to avoid her, but realized this is a great chance to interact with a woman without any pressure. I quite like her and have found relating to a woman as a ‘real person’ (as opposed to fantasy/idealization) good. Unfortunately they’ve split up (good thing is they’re now living amicably till she moves on) but it’s just.. Well people aren’t happy with their lives, jobs, relationships, but also have friends, laugh etc. I’ve felt more comfortable around her.. Hell even asked her to introduce me to her friends! I even mentioned my desire to meet women, that I felt (sexually) frustrated, etc. Nice conversations (somewhat limited by my excessive reserve) with some practical advice. Some amusement (calling me a ‘perv!’) etc. The usual stuff that I’ve got to meet people, get out of my area, just talk and talk until I’m used to it. Also some unwelcome advice about joining Tinder, etc. She claims “everyone’s on it” (which I believe) but I’m not looking for a shortcut. I’ve found talking with this girl, my family, etc has been much more satisfying than any time I’ve spent on the internet. Talking here with people (albeit virtually) has been more satisfying than looking at pictures/video.

Side note: for all those guys afraid of approaching women lemme relate an anecdote to you - this girl works in one of those department stores that sells expensive stuff. One guy came in to to buy a bag (presumably for a female acquaintance) and spoke to this girl. After some small talk he asked her out- she said that she has a boyfriend. The interesting part to me is when she described becoming flustered, blushing etc. The boyfriend also works (intermittently) in the same store. The guy didn’t care and also invited the boyfriend to dinner too. Coincidentally he [the boyfriend] also walked past at the time! My point is that I used to feel that I was pestering women because I’m a nincompoop, ugly, boring etc. We don’t have universal appeal, but I think women are often flattered by (the right type of) attention. I now remember a few times where my attention towards women produced similar reactions, I misinterpreted things due to a mindset limiting my perception. We’re all humans having experiences on the planet. My dad conceived me (and my siblings) in a sexual union with my mother and before that blah-blah-blah, but I’m acting like women are some space aliens! Not gonna do it anymore.

I’m also more attuned to attraction/arousal to women I see. The density of people in London means you’re likely to see (many) women that fit your criteria (however defined.) Quite a novelty to look at woman and feel excitement. I used to fear ( alluded to earlier) women because I felt sexual attraction (dulled due to porn, but still) without relating to women ‘holistically.’ Now I recognize women ‘as human’ I feel the ability to relate. I’m now quite eager to maybe get a date or something (something I’ve seldom done in the past.) Whether I get rejected (women are usually polite) etc isn’t necessarily a concern.

@ Eponymous (again!) Mantak Chia? Yep had the Multi-Orgasmic Man but found that book to be kinda sparse. Recently bought Healing Light of the Tao and Taoist Secrets of Love. Looking forward to practical work towards controlling and harnessing my sexuality.

Man that was a long and difficult post that I didn’t read after four sentences. Man, I’m getting old.


Started 7.75x5.75

Currently: 9.75bpX6.75eg My Picture Thread

Goal:10.0bpX7.25mseg Building a thicker unit, click by click, pump by pump, jelq by jelq!

Titleist

@ Titleist: yeah, even I wondered why I couldn’t shave it down some. Maybe I should’ve broken it down into maybe 2-3 posts. I’ll try and be more concise next time. I may tend to babble but I didn’t think it was that jumbled/convoluted.

Short version: Many benefits from giving up porn inc: lifting of depression, confidence, rising libido, getting things done, feeling that I’m more engaged in life. This is after just 3 weeks.

2nd point is I’m somewhat interested in what you could call esoteric sexuality (Taoism.)

If you can’t control it you have to quit it.

Day two porn free for me too. We can do this.

Originally Posted by Hobie Brown
Everyone OK?

I do want to ask you [eponymous] what the process has been like in terms of anticipating and countering the ups and downs? I’ve tried to ‘reboot’ before and just hadn’t exhausted my current mode of life. Now it’s at the end of this stage; I’ve explored [wasted] all I can living like this so I’m compelled to move to a new stage. Did you have days of frustration?…

It was more difficult when I just started out. I used to have to constantly look at the sticky note, on which I track my days without porn, in order to resist the temptation.

These days, it’s not hard at all. I think the main reason is that I have too many things which take up my time. Such as: My Job; Martial arts; Meditation; PE of course; Music (I’m an amateur musician); Family; talking with friends; socializing. I’m not really balancing all those things, but I keep trying. In fact there are other things that I want to be on that list, but no time.

So, once I reclaimed my time from porn, I found that I can’t even make time for porn. The saying “An idle mind is the devil’s playground” is… well… true. So keep busy. Go socialize; meet women; flirt. Explore your other interests, even if just for the sake of having something to talk about with these women you’ll be chatting up ;)

@Hobie Brown,

Also good on you for taking up Taoist meditation. It has changed my life for the better, and I’m still just at the beginning stages. Again, it’s difficult to make the time. But I try to get in a few sessions per week.

It’s even great for PE.

One of these days I’m going to write a super long post about it.

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