Hypogonadism, Testosterone and PE

…and don’t get a BB gun. You’ll put your eye out with that, kid. ;)

Seriously, though, Rotar: it’s more complicated than living healthy and avoiding soy.

That said, I second you, and recommend doing the healthy things and avoiding soy first, but that is not going to be a complete solution for everyone.

(Although, now that I think of it, a hammer to the groin is not exactly part of the healthy lifestyle…)

Frankly the only people who wave the flag of “Testosterone therapy will kill” you are the ones who don’t or haven’t used it. To each their own, but do the research. Responsible testosterone use by healthy ADULT males is VERY low risk. Lower than most over the counter medications. Knowledge is power!

Agreed.

There is some soy paranoia going around here that is a little hysterical and completely unfounded.

It’s true that soy has estrogen boosting qualities, but most people’s of consumption of it here in the US is so minimal that it’s not ever going to be a problem. Even in Asian cooking where it is probably used the most, the amount actual estrogen that will result in the body if one is, say, eating an exclusively Asian diet, is not really significant enough to cause a medical problem (individual sensitivities aside).

Men and women both have estrogen in their body chemistry and it is normal. Women have a bias in one direction, men in the other. That’s all. I wouldn’t suggest that anyone, man or woman, consume it as their one and only protein source, but I wouldn’t recommend that anyone starting eating potatoes exclusively either.

Soy is actually quite healthy for men to consume and has isoflavones that can help fortify the body against prostate cancer for example.

So don’t worry. You won’t grow tits if you eat a soy burger every now and then, and should eat a stir-fry or some Hot & Sour soup your biggest worry will be gas.

Honestly. Soy is okay. If you have a specific medical condition that precludes it’s consumption, well then…eat something else.

As a person who has been diagnosed with schizophrenia - an illness correlated with feminization of men - I have 5 words for everyone here: A - SHITLOAD - OF - VITAMIN - D!!

My concentrational problems, my anxiety, my insecurity, my useless never working dick (now it’s atleast rigid enough to have sex), my oversensitivity, my self hatred..

All fucking gone! I feel like a man once again.

This link proves vitamin d toxicity is highly overstated:

Try a large dose. Can´t hurt!

First, rotar: did you actually READ this post or are you trying to be quip? Secondly, redwings how are your levels? I thought mine were low at 249! I’m 30 years old, and don’t have any injury or other discernible reason why my levels were so low. I’ve been on t-cyp for about 3 weeks now, and was on axiron (same as androgel) for two weeks prior to that. So far, I have more energy, and my mind is a bit clearer but after almost 5 weeks of hrt, my sex drive is still no where near where I need to be

Then why do Asians and such have smaller genitalia on average?

There is an alternative to TRT (testosterone REPLACEMENT theory) that does not shut down the body`s own production, but rather stimulates the endogenous androgen production pathway.

The most common protocol seems to be a daily dosage of 25 mg Clomiphene Citrate. This is essentially the same treatment steroid users take in order to kickstart their own production when they quit taking external testosterone.

The cool thing about this is obviously that it does not shut down the body`s production, but stimulates the body to produce more on it`s own. I believe there are reports of guys getting a permanent fix from this as well.

Personally, I have been on this for quite a while and it honestly turned my life around. My testosterone levels were borderline low, but clueless family doctors do not care about that as long as it is within the reference range. I finally convinced my doctor to let me try this treatment. Bloodwork done after showed that my levels had improved noticeably. Unfortunately, my libido is not cured although way better, but I suspect that is because I may have low estrogen (yes).

Here`s a few studies:

Clomiphene Citrate Effects on Testosterone/Estrogen Ratio in Male Hypogonadism

J Sex Med 2005;2:716–721.

ABSTRACT

Aim. Symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism is associated not only with a decline in serum testosterone, but also with a rise in serum estradiol. These endocrine changes negatively affect libido, sexual function, mood, behavior, lean body mass, and bone density. Currently, the most common treatment is exogenous testostosterone therapy. This treatment can be associated with skin irritation, gynecomastia, nipple tenderness, testicular atrophy, and decline in sperm counts. In this study we investigated the efficacy of clomiphene citrate in the treatment of hypogonadism with the objectives of raising endogenous serum testosterone (T) and improving the testosterone/estrogen (T/E) ratio.

Methods. Our cohort consisted of 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism defined as serum testosterone level less than 300 ng/dL. Each patient was treated with a daily dose of 25 mg clomiphene citrate and followed prospectively. Analysis of baseline and follow-up serum levels of testosterone and estradiol levels were performed.

Results. The mean age was 39 years, and the mean pretreatment testosterone and estrogen levels were 247.6 ± 39.8 ng/dL and 32.3 ± 10.9, respectively. By the first follow-up visit (4–6 weeks), the mean testosterone level rose to 610.0 ± 178.6 ng/dL (P < 0.00001). Moreover, the T/E ratio improved from 8.7 to 14.2 (P < 0.001). There were no side effects reported by the patients.

Conclusions. Low dose clomiphene citrate is effective in elevating serum testosterone levels and improving the testosterone/estadiol ratio in men with hypogonadism. This therapy represents an alternative to testosterone therapy by stimulating the endogenous androgen production pathway.

Here`s a study that shows Clomiphene to be just as effective as TRT with less side-effects (none in the study) and lower cost.

J Sex Med. 2010 Jan;7(1 Pt 1):269-76. Epub 2009 Aug 17.
Clomiphene citrate and testosterone gel replacement therapy for male hypogonadism: efficacy and treatment cost.
Taylor F, Levine L.
SourceRush University Medical Center-Department of Urology, Chicago, IL, USA. frederick_taylor@rush.edu

Abstract
INTRODUCTION: The efficacy of oral clomiphene citrate (CC) in the treatment of male hypogonadism and male infertility (MI) with low serum testosterone and normal gonadotropin levels has been reported.

AIM: The aim of this article is to evaluate CC and testosterone gel replacement therapy (TGRT) with regard to biochemical and clinical efficacy and cost.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: The main outcome measures were change in serum testosterone with CC and TGRT therapy, and change in the androgen deficiency in aging male (ADAM) questionnaire scores with CC therapy.

METHODS: Men receiving CC or TGRT with either Androgel 1% or Testim 1% for hypogonadism (defined as testosterone < 300 ng/mL) or MI were included. Serum values were collected 1-2 months after treatment initiation and semi-annually thereafter. Retrospective data collection was performed via chart review. Subjective follow up of patients receiving CC was performed via telephone interview using the ADAM questionnaire.

RESULTS: A hundred and four men (65 CC and 39 TGRT) were identified who began CC (50 mg every other day) or TGRT (5 g). Average age (years) was 42(CC) vs. 57 (TGRT). Average follow up was 23 months (CC, range 8-40 months) vs. 46 months (TGRT, range 6-149 months). Average posttreatment testosterone was 573 ng/dL in the CC group and 553 ng/dL in the TGRT group (P value < 0.001). The monthly cost of Testim 1% (5 gm daily) is $270, Androgel 1% (5 gm daily) is $265, and CC (50 mg every other day) is $83. Among CC patients, the average pretreatment ADAM score was 4.9 vs. 2.1 at follow up (P < 0.05). Average pretreatment ADAM sexual function domain score was 0.76 vs. 0.23 at follow up (P < 0.05). There were no adverse events reported.

CONCLUSION: CC represents a treatment option for men with hypogonadism, demonstrating biochemical and clinical efficacy with few side effects and lower cost as compared with TGRT.

PMID:19694928[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Renholder, how low is your estrogen level ? I assume you did some blood work to figure this, right ?

As you pointed out, estrogen needs to be in the “good” range, not too high but not too low to have an optimal libido.

Hey alin,

I don`t have my bloodwork at hand, but from what I gathered from talking with others is that the standard estrogen test here in Norway is not very specific. It merely states that I have below a certain value (that is considered normal here in Norway), but not exactly how low it is. So, it is very well likely that it is too low.

You know, my female family doctor laughed when I said that I suspected my estrogen levels were too low. Her answer, “Oh no, you would not want high levels of that”. The same doctor that typed “Testosterone” into Google when I was at her office and said that she really had to take a time out since this was stuff that she did not have a deep knowledge of. She has good intentions though and did agree to put me on a trial of Clomiphene, but it goes a way to show the knowledge familiy doctors here have on such issues.

Yeah, family doctors should just send you to other specialized doctors, not treat you themselves. :)

Can you tell what weight are you now and at what BF%(approximately) ? I ask this because if one has lower BF it tends to have lower estrogen level as aromatase(which converts test to estro) is found in fat cells in quite high levels.

Yeah, clomiphene is good…you surely noticed an increase in load, haven’t you ?

I`m 79 kg/174 lbs. I can only approximate my BF% and say roughly 20% or below. I used to be very thin when I was younger, but after a bulking phase in my early teens I have tended to accumulate a little bodyfat and it seems that I tend to end up in a equilibrium with a little more than I would prefer, although I`m not fat.

I do believe I noticed an increase in my load when I started, but I`m definitely not shooting any more than “normal” :)

Sta-kool,

Would you mind sharing a little bit about your experience with TRT? Any negatives? Others are also welcome to join if they have something to share. I`ve actually read accounts from people who say that is not entirely a positive experience, although most people seem to be satisfied.

I`ve been having some issues for several years now and I`m looking to possibly get a consulation with an endocrinologist in the US. From what I`ve been told, chances are good that I will get treatment based on past results, but what`s holding me back is the fact that it`s pretty much a treatment for life.

I do however think that is something I would have to accept, if it can improve my life beyond how it is now.

Your levels seem to be very low prior to TRT. Was there any specific cause of your condition or did it just happen?

Thanks,

Renholder

Bump! :)

I finally found a doctor who has experience effectuating TRT treatment. We took extensive bloodwork on my first visit, so I hope to get some answers on my next appointment which is just over the weekend.

I have to admit that I`m not very enthusiastic about TRT, especially since I`m so young, but if it is the answer to my problems, I will do it.

Thanks for any input.

I’ve been on TRT for about three months now. I’d recommend all men over 30 have their levels tested. I know it sounds young but why wait until you notice a problem that’s hard to detect/notice.

I’ve never felt better. I inject once a week and amazed at how easy it is to do. I’ve had no nut atrophy, anger or acne. Lot of wood and my musculature is changing. I worked out six days a week before so I’m not sure if it’s my new routine or the sufficient amount of testosterone in my system.