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Hey guys, Testosterone question.

Originally Posted by BlackRose

.. I am looking for a new endo for him ..

Wise. It certainly took me some time to find the right Dr. With the right strategy for me. Don’t give up and keep educating yourselves. I wish you the best of luck. I’ll share any of my experiences with you that you might like. I would hope it will help you.

Thank you all. Plan for the moment is gonna be do it “as we are told” until I get him in to a doc with a basic understanding of chemistry and half life.

Originally Posted by Spartacus100
Don’t give up and keep educating yourselves.

When he said hubs was trusting his wife and her googling degree instead of the Doctor I about lost it. Any “doctor” that knows it all to the point they don’t welcome questions and encourage patients and their family to take an interest and active role in their care is not a real doctor in my opinion.

It sounds like you are under extreme stress and your husband had other major health issues ( first post) , it may be wise to find a good endo but also not to write possible medical reasons off. Make sure to share all the info with a specialist and don’t just push for trt because you decided it was what was needed. From the way you speak it sounds like you have found the treatment your hubby must receive , and that’s from using google, so I can understand the doc’s point of view. It’s good to get informed about various people experience with the suggested treatments but at the end of the day you are not a doc.

So finding someone you can trust (specialist or md) should be a smart move. Maybe relatives can help you find one?

Originally Posted by Walter5169
It sounds like you are under extreme stress and your husband had other major health issues ( first post) , it may be wise to find a good endo but also not to write possible medical reasons off. Make sure to share all the info with a specialist and don’t just push for trt because you decided it was what was needed. From the way you speak it sounds like you have found the treatment your hubby must receive , and that’s from using google, so I can understand the doc’s point of view. It’s good to get informed about various people experience with the suggested treatments but at the end of the day you are not a doc.
So finding someone you can trust (specialist or md) should be a smart move. Maybe relatives can help you find one?

I’m not writing off possible medical reasons by a long shot. The doctor agreed his testosterone needed to come up, but his version of how to do it was to use a medication off label to raise his LH and FSH which are already in normal ranges out of normal ranges in the hopes that if he got them high enough his body would get the message and start producing testosterone. He suggested that or TRT and TRT sounds safer considering we have 3 small children already and I’d rather him go with the long standing treatment that won’t screw up his liver in the hopes of preserving his ability to father more children. When it came to the TRT the doc wanted to do androgel, which carries a black box FDA warning about potential transfer risks to children because it can cause bone damage. Androgel is also much more expensive and highly marketed, with poorer absorption rates and less efficacy than the injections, which is why I don’t trust the doctors extremely hard push for it over an injection that can’t transfer to the kids, is more effective, and has a longer history of use which means the side effects of it are much more well documented. Considering any medication carries risks, being informed of those risks is paramount when the doctor will not tell you what they are, and he said point blank there was no reason to worry about androgel and the children. Considering we already know there is a pituitary issue and inflammation that caused his body to stop producing ADH, I’m much more interested in finding a doctor who is willing to look at why a 31 year old potent male who 4 years ago averaged sex 3-5 times per day at least 3-4 days every week is now rarely interested in sex at all and has extremely low testosterone levels despite having normal FSH and LH levels which should be causing his body to produce a normal amount of testosterone instead of just trying to raise the FSH and LH abnormally high to achieve that. Any time you introduce any outside chemicals or stimulus to the body it has the potential to cause the body to slow or stop production of those things. If they are going to do something to raise his testosterone and help him feel better, it’s logically safer to go with the option that has a longer history and if it suppresses production anywhere it does so in the testicles vs the brain. He can shoot blanks for the rest of his life without a lower quality of life, men with vasectomies prove that daily, but the long term effects of a medication meant to treat infertility in women in doses only 5 days in length is a much riskier option to his health overall than testosterone injections to help with symptoms while we find a doctor who is interested and willing to look at the cause behind why it isn’t working right.

As men, you can all appreciate the difficulty of going in to a doctor and having to say “no my sex drive has severely decreased, as has erection quality and my ability to ejaculate during intercourse” and the mental anguish admitting that can cause to a mans self esteem. Top that off with combat vet, fireman, EMT, foundry worker, served in 2 war zones and finished his tour in another country preparing and sending fallen soldiers home, and as an EMT has been the first on scene to wrecks where people he knows have been cut in half and are pinned between vehicles in an accident… He has handled all that without PTSD or depression or any mental issues he couldn’t cope with without help, and now he’s having mood swings and depression because he’s tired and working and has bills to pay and it’s overwhelming him? The idea of taking the kids to the zoo for the first time was met with “I’m too tired and I’m going to miss things anyway, just go without me.” Having to admit that he is having trouble coping with normal stress after all he’s been through and seen in his life is honestly more than his pride will allow. He thought for the longest time he could just snap himself out of it, despite the test results showing something is wrong and causing the issue, so when he finally admitted he needs help, a doctor saying things to him like “is that your decision or your wife’s” was outright a low blow and I would consider it medically unethical, especially when it was over a disagreement between two methods of treatment (androgel vs injections) for the same issue and his reasons for wanting to avoid the higher cost, less effective, potentially dangerous to his children option was a valid concern.

Originally Posted by BlackRose

As men, you can all appreciate the difficulty of going in to a doctor and having to say “no my sex drive has severely decreased, as has erection quality and my ability to ejaculate during intercourse” and the mental anguish admitting that can cause to a mans self esteem. Top that off with combat vet, fireman, EMT, foundry worker, served in 2 war zones and finished his tour in another country preparing and sending fallen soldiers home, and as an EMT has been the first on scene to wrecks where people he knows have been cut in half and are pinned between vehicles in an accident… He has handled all that without PTSD or depression or any mental issues he couldn’t cope with without help, and now he’s having mood swings and depression because he’s tired and working and has bills to pay and it’s overwhelming him? The idea of taking the kids to the zoo for the first time was met with “I’m too tired and I’m going to miss things anyway, just go without me.” Having to admit that he is having trouble coping with normal stress after all he’s been through and seen in his life is honestly more than his pride will allow. He thought for the longest time he could just snap himself out of it, despite the test results showing something is wrong and causing the issue, so when he finally admitted he needs help, a doctor saying things to him like “is that your decision or your wife’s” was outright a low blow and I would consider it medically unethical, especially when it was over a disagreement between two methods of treatment (androgel vs injections) for the same issue and his reasons for wanting to avoid the higher cost, less effective, potentially dangerous to his children option was a valid concern.

I am not a doctor by any means. But as a man and someone who studies psychology, I’m sure doctors have some idea how sensitive a topic this is. Or they are supposed to. I’m not sure what his angle is, as a doctor, unless he has a stake in getting patients on Androgel or whatever else he’s recommending that he would do such a thing. His attitude suggests to me a doctor who has been at it too long, too used to getting a cushy paycheck and doesn’t care about the service he gives his patients anymore.

Your husband sounds like a great man and it honestly is saddening to see some doctor disregard all of those things to push his opinion on someone who is having trouble having an opinion about things right now. The “is this your wife’s decision” comment is not only uncalled for, it showcases contempt for you having concern when you are the only person in this equation truly devoted to a solution. Your husband isn’t in the state to tell this guy off so of course you would feel you need to. You ought to, right after you find a new doctor.

Scorn and contempt are not ever a good way to communicate with anyone seeking your help. Period. I’d report him to his superiors if I were you, other men could be suffering at his hands this exact same way.


Now: 9" BPEL x 6" MSEG as of 12/16/2016 This is my story...and a few progress pics of me here.

Then: 6.25" x 4.37" in 8/2009 Are you new to PE? Here's some advice I wish someone had given me when I first started.

My big secret? My methods. There is no "Holy Grail" of Penis Enlargement. Only time and effort works. I'm *8* years in and counting. All you have to do is put the work in and keep the faith. Also Fitness helps too.

Originally Posted by BlackRose
I’m not writing off possible medical reasons by a long shot. The doctor agreed his testosterone needed to come up, but his version of how to do it was to use a medication off label to raise his LH and FSH which are already in normal ranges out of normal ranges in the hopes that if he got them high enough his body would get the message and start producing testosterone. He suggested that or TRT and TRT sounds safer considering we have 3 small children already and I’d rather him go with the long standing treatment that won’t screw up his liver in the hopes of preserving his ability to father more children. When it came to the TRT the doc wanted to do androgel, which carries a black box FDA warning about potential transfer risks to children because it can cause bone damage. Androgel is also much more expensive and highly marketed, with poorer absorption rates and less efficacy than the injections, which is why I don’t trust the doctors extremely hard push for it over an injection that can’t transfer to the kids, is more effective, and has a longer history of use which means the side effects of it are much more well documented. Considering any medication carries risks, being informed of those risks is paramount when the doctor will not tell you what they are, and he said point blank there was no reason to worry about androgel and the children. Considering we already know there is a pituitary issue and inflammation that caused his body to stop producing ADH, I’m much more interested in finding a doctor who is willing to look at why a 31 year old potent male who 4 years ago averaged sex 3-5 times per day at least 3-4 days every week is now rarely interested in sex at all and has extremely low testosterone levels despite having normal FSH and LH levels which should be causing his body to produce a normal amount of testosterone instead of just trying to raise the FSH and LH abnormally high to achieve that. Any time you introduce any outside chemicals or stimulus to the body it has the potential to cause the body to slow or stop production of those things. If they are going to do something to raise his testosterone and help him feel better, it’s logically safer to go with the option that has a longer history and if it suppresses production anywhere it does so in the testicles vs the brain. He can shoot blanks for the rest of his life without a lower quality of life, men with vasectomies prove that daily, but the long term effects of a medication meant to treat infertility in women in doses only 5 days in length is a much riskier option to his health overall than testosterone injections to help with symptoms while we find a doctor who is interested and willing to look at the cause behind why it isn’t working right.

As men, you can all appreciate the difficulty of going in to a doctor and having to say “no my sex drive has severely decreased, as has erection quality and my ability to ejaculate during intercourse” and the mental anguish admitting that can cause to a mans self esteem. Top that off with combat vet, fireman, EMT, foundry worker, served in 2 war zones and finished his tour in another country preparing and sending fallen soldiers home, and as an EMT has been the first on scene to wrecks where people he knows have been cut in half and are pinned between vehicles in an accident… He has handled all that without PTSD or depression or any mental issues he couldn’t cope with without help, and now he’s having mood swings and depression because he’s tired and working and has bills to pay and it’s overwhelming him? The idea of taking the kids to the zoo for the first time was met with “I’m too tired and I’m going to miss things anyway, just go without me.” Having to admit that he is having trouble coping with normal stress after all he’s been through and seen in his life is honestly more than his pride will allow. He thought for the longest time he could just snap himself out of it, despite the test results showing something is wrong and causing the issue, so when he finally admitted he needs help, a doctor saying things to him like “is that your decision or your wife’s” was outright a low blow and I would consider it medically unethical, especially when it was over a disagreement between two methods of treatment (androgel vs injections) for the same issue and his reasons for wanting to avoid the higher cost, less effective, potentially dangerous to his children option was a valid concern.

Also, I hope you’re not dealing with the VA. The VA hospitals are known for really crass treatments. A lot of older veterans I know are not treated as thoroughly as they need there. They typically just give you an Rx for Viagra (the generic) at max dose and send you on your way. I doubt you are dealing with the VA, as you’re likely aware of what I just said, but this is just because you mentioned he’s a combat veteran.


Now: 9" BPEL x 6" MSEG as of 12/16/2016 This is my story...and a few progress pics of me here.

Then: 6.25" x 4.37" in 8/2009 Are you new to PE? Here's some advice I wish someone had given me when I first started.

My big secret? My methods. There is no "Holy Grail" of Penis Enlargement. Only time and effort works. I'm *8* years in and counting. All you have to do is put the work in and keep the faith. Also Fitness helps too.

Who knows maybe the major stress he’s been through in the past is surfacing now, maybe there’s a different cause. I understand your concern about the quality and intentions of this doc, hopefully you don’t feel like you are stuck with him and can move on quick. Is there no way the pituitary inflammation and lack of ADH is the root of the problem? Did you check prolactin? Cortisol? Various thyroid hormones? Did you get a complete blood work done? A good endo could help.

Originally Posted by thoughtfulgold
I am not a doctor by any means. But as a man and someone who studies psychology, I’m sure doctors have some idea how sensitive a topic this is. Or they are supposed to. I’m not sure what his angle is, as a doctor, unless he has a stake in getting patients on Androgel or whatever else he’s recommending that he would do such a thing. His attitude suggests to me a doctor who has been at it too long, too used to getting a cushy paycheck and doesn’t care about the service he gives his patients anymore.

Your husband sounds like a great man and it honestly is saddening to see some doctor disregard all of those things to push his opinion on someone who is having trouble having an opinion about things right now. The “is this your wife’s decision” comment is not only uncalled for, it showcases contempt for you having concern when you are the only person in this equation truly devoted to a solution. Your husband isn’t in the state to tell this guy off so of course you would feel you need to. You ought to, right after you find a new doctor.

Scorn and contempt are not ever a good way to communicate with anyone seeking your help. Period. I’d report him to his superiors if I were you, other men could be suffering at his hands this exact same way.

My thoughts exactly. I think he’s comfortable with the clomid because most of his patients are advanced in age or have a pituitary issue restricting FSH and LH production. If this were the case with my husband I’d agree that’s the best course of action, but since his levels are normal and he’s too young to be having these issues it seems wiser to find the cause. Temporary replacement in the meantime to help his mood and mental status, but I’d say there is a financial incentive for the androgel as I’ve seen pharm reps there many times while we were waiting for our appt. I personally feel like he is looking at the whole issue in the wrong direction because this is not the first time he’s made his displeasure with me being there or having an opinion on anything known, when we first showed up for the symptoms of DI they asked my husband about history and if he had noticed a decrease in sexual drive or ability, and fatigue, mood swings etc, and while hubs instantly denied it I stepped in and tried to point out there had been issues with his mood, energy and drive, but not his ability so far. I also said we had chalked it up to him being on third shift, tired, stressed because this pregnancy would make 3 under 3 at our house, so we considered it normal at the time. The doctors response was “I want to hear from the patient, not you.” Since then I have tried very hard to not say anything, and I have even skipped appointments in the hopes my husband would be more comfortable talking about it if I was not there, which proved to be a false hope. Now it’s been almost 5 months with no answers and watching my husband get worse while the doctor ignores the first symptom was likely the low testosterone, not the DI, and keeps giving him medication to mask or treat the symptoms without continuing to find the cause. Initially they were trying to find the cause of the DI, and found inflammation, but they stopped looking for “what caused a healthy 31 year old to suddenly develop inflammation in his pituitary gland” after they ruled out the most likely causes and couldn’t biopsy it because it was too small, so they just gave him prednisone to hopefully reduce the swelling. At that point I was still staying out of it as much as possible, but after talking it over with someone who specializes in autoimmune diseases and they questioned me with “why has he been on prednisone for so long? If they want any chance of his pituitary to start functioning again they need it reduce the inflammation quickly, treating it in the same manner they would an MS patient with a flare up would have been more practical and not suppressed his body’s production of cortisol, I don’t understand why they are treating it like its arthritis” I decided to make sure I was fully informed on future treatment options and alternatives and get involved. I wanted a second opinion before that, but hubs mental status and exhaustion levels have made him very resistant to having to drive an hour to where the endocrinologists who specialize in this type of thing are. We live in a small town and the endo who we see travels here 2 days a week and specializes in type 2 diabetes and metabolism issues. I’m hoping the testosterone helps mental status and energy enough he feels more able to continue searching for an answer instead of just treating symptoms as they arise until he can’t anymore.

Thoughtful gold- not the VA, just a small local hospital who’s first MRI wasn’t even detailed enough to diagnose the pituitary issue as inflammation instead of a tumor.

Walter- The endo is working under the assumption the testosterone is somehow caused by the inflammation in the same way as the lack of ADH, but that is at least partially because my husband denied any previous issues before the ADH, even though they were present, just not this severe. Thyroid showed funny once before they added desmopressin because he was unable to sleep more than 15-20 minutes at a time day or night without having to get up to go to the bathroom, but ever since then it has been normal. As has every other test they have ran, I know they did multiple cbc’s and checked his cortisol prior to the prednisone, i would have to look at his records for the prolactin however. Basically every single test they have ran has come back practically blindingly normal except they found inflammation with the MRI and his testosterone was low, and a complete lack of ADH. They are working under the name of idiopathic inflammation of the pituitary.

Originally Posted by BlackRose
My thoughts exactly. I think he’s comfortable with the clomid because most of his patients are advanced in age or have a pituitary issue restricting FSH and LH production. If this were the case with my husband I’d agree that’s the best course of action, but since his levels are normal and he’s too young to be having these issues it seems wiser to find the cause. Temporary replacement in the meantime to help his mood and mental status, but I’d say there is a financial incentive for the androgel as I’ve seen pharm reps there many times while we were waiting for our appt. I personally feel like he is looking at the whole issue in the wrong direction because this is not the first time he’s made his displeasure with me being there or having an opinion on anything known, when we first showed up for the symptoms of DI they asked my husband about history and if he had noticed a decrease in sexual drive or ability, and fatigue, mood swings etc, and while hubs instantly denied it I stepped in and tried to point out there had been issues with his mood, energy and drive, but not his ability so far. I also said we had chalked it up to him being on third shift, tired, stressed because this pregnancy would make 3 under 3 at our house, so we considered it normal at the time. The doctors response was “I want to hear from the patient, not you.” Since then I have tried very hard to not say anything, and I have even skipped appointments in the hopes my husband would be more comfortable talking about it if I was not there, which proved to be a false hope. Now it’s been almost 5 months with no answers and watching my husband get worse while the doctor ignores the first symptom was likely the low testosterone, not the DI, and keeps giving him medication to mask or treat the symptoms without continuing to find the cause. Initially they were trying to find the cause of the DI, and found inflammation, but they stopped looking for “what caused a healthy 31 year old to suddenly develop inflammation in his pituitary gland” after they ruled out the most likely causes and couldn’t biopsy it because it was too small, so they just gave him prednisone to hopefully reduce the swelling. At that point I was still staying out of it as much as possible, but after talking it over with someone who specializes in autoimmune diseases and they questioned me with “why has he been on prednisone for so long? If they want any chance of his pituitary to start functioning again they need it reduce the inflammation quickly, treating it in the same manner they would an MS patient with a flare up would have been more practical and not suppressed his body’s production of cortisol, I don’t understand why they are treating it like its arthritis” I decided to make sure I was fully informed on future treatment options and alternatives and get involved. I wanted a second opinion before that, but hubs mental status and exhaustion levels have made him very resistant to having to drive an hour to where the endocrinologists who specialize in this type of thing are. We live in a small town and the endo who we see travels here 2 days a week and specializes in type 2 diabetes and metabolism issues. I’m hoping the testosterone helps mental status and energy enough he feels more able to continue searching for an answer instead of just treating symptoms as they arise until he can’t anymore.

I agree. Testosterone Replacement will probably get his head much better. Closer to his old self enough that traveling to see another Endocrinologist for an hour or two to a big city will sound attractive instead of like an insurmountable chore.

You are suffering from narrow market bullshit. That doctor you have now knows he’s the only game in town. You ain’t gotta be good at what you do when no one does it. That’s a sad part about marketing. Competition keeps folks sharp. This doc, he ain’t got no reason to be any sharper than he is. There’s no good going to come from him. Vested interest in the pharmacy stuff is common, too.

At this point, even the VA is better than this hack. At least it’s another opinion and they may recommend a specialist outside of the VA.

Get him on TRT short term, get ready for a road trip sometime soon. Cuz you’ll have to go to the doc you need and you ain’t got one close that will suffice.


Now: 9" BPEL x 6" MSEG as of 12/16/2016 This is my story...and a few progress pics of me here.

Then: 6.25" x 4.37" in 8/2009 Are you new to PE? Here's some advice I wish someone had given me when I first started.

My big secret? My methods. There is no "Holy Grail" of Penis Enlargement. Only time and effort works. I'm *8* years in and counting. All you have to do is put the work in and keep the faith. Also Fitness helps too.

Originally Posted by thoughtfulgold
I agree. Testosterone Replacement will probably get his head much better. Closer to his old self enough that traveling to see another Endocrinologist for an hour or two to a big city will sound attractive instead of like an insurmountable chore.

You are suffering from narrow market bullshit. That doctor you have now knows he’s the only game in town. You ain’t gotta be good at what you do when no one does it. That’s a sad part about marketing. Competition keeps folks sharp. This doc, he ain’t got no reason to be any sharper than he is. There’s no good going to come from him. Vested interest in the pharmacy stuff is common, too.

At this point, even the VA is better than this hack. At least it’s another opinion and they may recommend a specialist outside of the VA.

Get him on TRT short term, get ready for a road trip sometime soon. Cuz you’ll have to go to the doc you need and you ain’t got one close that will suffice.

TRT will start today, just went an picked it up. We are only about an hour-hour and a half from Indy, but even the VA is there so while he’s been like this ive had no alternatives. I made an appt for myself with our shared PCP to try to get a referral and have been looking at other endo’s to ask for a referral to assuming hubs feels more up to it in a few weeks. Figuring out who can help and won’t just be another disaster like this one is a completely different kind of challenge.

Originally Posted by BlackRose
TRT will start today, just went an picked it up. We are only about an hour-hour and a half from Indy, but even the VA is there so while he’s been like this ive had no alternatives. I made an appt for myself with our shared PCP to try to get a referral and have been looking at other endo’s to ask for a referral to assuming hubs feels more up to it in a few weeks. Figuring out who can help and won’t just be another disaster like this one is a completely different kind of challenge.

You are taking the right steps. You’ll get good results. Your tenacity and perseverance will pay off for you both. Figuring out who can help is the easy part.

Getting to that step is most important and difficult, as a lot of people would just have taken your current hack, I mean doctor, at face value.

His Google-Fu comment is designed to undermine you because he knows you’ll leave and take money out of his pocket if he’s not careful. He just wants to slow that process but he sped it up. Screw him.


Now: 9" BPEL x 6" MSEG as of 12/16/2016 This is my story...and a few progress pics of me here.

Then: 6.25" x 4.37" in 8/2009 Are you new to PE? Here's some advice I wish someone had given me when I first started.

My big secret? My methods. There is no "Holy Grail" of Penis Enlargement. Only time and effort works. I'm *8* years in and counting. All you have to do is put the work in and keep the faith. Also Fitness helps too.

Yep. Just gave him the shot, bless his pain tolerance, from everything I’ve heard (even the pharmacists warned me) it’s not a pleasant shot to get. Once the needle was in he said it was no big deal.

Ok from all I know you’ll need to keep an eye on estrogen levels.

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