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Why gains slow!

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
The last study also makes me wonder whether jelqing is such an effective form of PE because it basically applies stress to the tunica both lengthwise and girthwise (circumferentially). Jelqing may prevent excessive alignment of collagen fibrils along either “direction.” Because the fibrils can’t align to resist added stress, higher resistance to stress can only be achieved by adding more fibrils—i.e., tunica enlargement or (heaven forbid) thickening.

I guess a counterargument could be that the tunica has two layers—an outer lengthwise layer and an inner girthwise layer. Jelqing may transmit virtually all the lenthwise stress to the outer layer, where the fibrils can align longitudinally, and virtually all the girthwise stress to the inner layer, where the fibrils can align circumferentially.

So perhaps the body’s not so stupid afterall :( .

But still, some circumferential stress must be applied to the outer layer, which does, after all, expand girthwise during a jelq. Likewise for the inner layer, which expands lengthwise. So, maybe jelqing does provide a small benefit in randomizing the fibril alignment.

I don’t like playing devils advocate but do you have any electron micrographs of the collagen arrangement of the tunica. You are comparing very different tissues with different functions that happen to have collagen in common. I am not saying you are wrong, just that it might be easier to imagine similar processes are taking place if you could direct us to images so that we could evaluate whether this make sense for the tunica.

Originally Posted by penismith
I don’t like playing devils advocate but do you have any electron micrographs of the collagen arrangement of the tunica.

Penismith,

Turnabout is fair play :) , and I’m glad to hear from you. I don’t have any pictures, just descriptions from books and articles.

But I recently read an abstract of an article presenting a 3-dimensional architecture of collagen in monkey tunica (there’s also one for a mouse). I think I can buy it for $25, and there may be pictures. I can’t download the paper, so I’ll have to find a library that has it. I may try to get it next week, and I’ll post again after I’ve seen it.

Your observation about differences between skin and tunica layers is well taken. I have the same concern about generalizing from the example of skin. For one thing, collagen in skin forms a web that resists stress in all directions. In the tunica, the collagen is generally aligned (longitudinally outside, circumferentially inside). It could be that the fibers in the tunica are already maximally aligned, and nothing can disrupt their alignment.

But I have read from numerous sources now that collagen fibers align in the direction of applied force. So, for all I know, the layers of the tunica only align as they do because of the forces they receive (based on their locations and connection points).

So, it may be possible to encourage them be come out of alignment.

I’d lean towards your counter argument (that because they are separate layers jelqing would be okay). Despite that however, I think there is some cross influence between them.

A while back when we were talking about plastic deformation, I mentioned that I was getting length gains on a daily basis for a while, then in the middle of it I did one girth day that got me about 1/8” extra girth (after swelling subsided). At the same time I lost some length. I then continued the length routines and recovered the length over the next couple of days, but at some (but not all) cost to the girth. I attributed this to the length having further to travel since the penis was more ‘balooned’. Even though this wasn’t real growth, it does give some insight as to the physical make up.

With regard to skin, the stresses are applied across a collagen matrix, so it needs a different equation.

Tunica Maturation?

Penis lengthening like bone lengthening?

This is very good and brings us back to the other aim of this tread which is, how does the penis change at the end of puberty, or why do puberty gains slow.

Have either of you (or anyone else) found any information on how the tunica might be different before and after puberty? I am bogged down for awhile so I need to rely on you guys.

Big questions arise? How does this undulating network grow during puberty? What an intriguing process? Is there a collagenase that snips enough fibers in some non-random ways Or does the tertiary structure change during or at the end of puberty?

This has significant implications in any type of pharmacological pe involving DHT and or tissue regulators down stream of HGH. Imagine a basket ball and a weak air pump. DHT could be perfectly capable of adding air to the ball if not for the rubber shell. Yet the penis grows during puberty.

Do you think the growth at puberty is caused by frequent rock hard erections that stretch out the tissues. Then possibly those who gain well in PE are stretching out those tissues that puberty didn’t stretch as much as for one who doesn’t gain so well in the beginning of PE. Perhaps PE is simulating what happens at puberty. Just a thought.


:flame: "If you build it, they will cum."

Redwood\'s Progress Report/Routines Thread.

Originally Posted by Redwood1981
Do you think the growth at puberty is caused by frequent rock hard erections that stretch out the tissues. Then possibly those who gain well in PE are stretching out those tissues that puberty didn’t stretch as much as for one who doesn’t gain so well in the beginning of PE. Perhaps PE is simulating what happens at puberty. Just a thought.

I think most of the tissues of the penis are stimulated to grow by the actions of DHT on the androgen receptor. I don’t know what structural changes take place in the tunica to allow for growth. MM and Shiver have been taking a close look at the collagen tertiary structure of the tunica and I am hoping that they can offer knowledge before I am uncontrollably launched on a manic search for the answer.

I believe that gains slow because the tissues undergo changes, specifically they become more dense (particularly the connective tissues). As they become more dense, they become less pliable and their increased strength makes further deformation more difficult.

I believe this is one reason why “intensity” should never be rushed (aside from the obvious injury considerations). You want your “length” to say ahead of your “strength.” Always shoot for fatigue, but this requires Time more than just pulling your ass off. Ideally, gains should be made with as little tension as is required to keep making gains (obviously, this threshhold will gradually increase - but no need to rush it).

I also believe that this is why periodic breaks (cold turkey) should be done for deconditioning. Obviously, this requires some serious discipline since most PE junkies just can’t stop. But I believe that this “cycling” of PE & breaks is the key to making significant gains (2”+ EL and 0.75”+ EG). It just takes time. But when I consider the many months I spun my wheels for little or no gains, only to take an extended break then gain 0.22” EL in only 3 weeks, I become a little ill. I could’ve probably crushed my goal already had I been implementing this principle during the past 18 months. :(

Originally Posted by wadzilla
I believe that gains slow because the tissues undergo changes, specifically they become more dense (particularly the connective tissues). As they become more dense, they become less pliable and their increased strength makes further deformation more difficult.

I believe this is one reason why “intensity” should never be rushed (aside from the obvious injury considerations). You want your “length” to say ahead of your “strength.” Always shoot for fatigue, but this requires Time more than just pulling your ass off. Ideally, gains should be made with as little tension as is required to keep making gains (obviously, this threshhold will gradually increase - but no need to rush it).

I also believe that this is why periodic breaks (cold turkey) should be done for deconditioning. Obviously, this requires some serious discipline since most PE junkies just can’t stop. But I believe that this “cycling” of PE & breaks is the key to making significant gains (2”+ EL and 0.75”+ EG). It just takes time. But when I consider the many months I spun my wheels for little or no gains, only to take an extended break then gain 0.22” EL in only 3 weeks, I become a little ill. I could’ve probably crushed my goal already had I been implementing this principle during the past 18 months. :(

Thanks Wad,
This is one of the ideas we are tossing about. We are trying to look very closely at the process. If you are right, then we want to know exactly what is taking place at a molecular level. We want to know how the body senses the stress and what series of events lead to this increase of density.

One more aside: I know one person in real life who’s done PE and he’s made major gains. When he first told me about it, he went from 5” EL to 7” EL, then quit because his wife complained. Well, since then, she’s become his ex-wife (for reasons unrelated to his growth).

I saw him a 2nd time, after an extended period, and he told me he got back into it and had passed 8 (that’s 3”+ EL gains). He told me he was shooting for 9. He also whipped out his flaccid in front of me to take a piss and I was shocked (back in high school, he had an acorn dick).

Anyway, I bring this up to make a few points:
(1) He was very consistent - 7 days per week.
(2) His routine was very basic: jelqs & some 9:00 pulls.
(3) He knew next-to-nothing about PE “theory” or technical terms.
(4) He took an unintended break of maybe 1 year or so (can’t remember exactly), then he resumed PE after his break-up and he quickly gained another inch EL.
(5) He was an active, physically fit guy, ate well, took vitamins, etc. He looked much younger than his 40 years.

My thoughts on the guy, however, is that he was always a plodder. A very determined, deliberate kind of guy. He stuck with it, never got discouraged. Furthermore, he was never a physically strong guy or an intense individual - rather cautious in fact. I doubt that he ever pulled very vigorously or jelqed with a vise grip. He PE’d daily, stayed active, ate healthy and never gave up - until his then-wife complained. This somewhat low-level, high volume PE may have been the reason he really didn’t need extended breaks, but he kept making gains. And when he did take a non-strategic break, he quickly gained another inch EL, even though he’d already gained 2” EL.

Just some thoughts, for what they’re worth.

Originally Posted by penismith
Thanks Wad,
This is one of the ideas we are tossing about. We are trying to look very closely at the process. If you are right, then we want to know exactly what is taking place at a molecular level. We want to know how the body senses the stress and what series of events lead to this increase of density.


Yeah, I understand where you’re coming from, I just think it’s a bit of over-reaching. Unless we have a number of test subjects, including a control group, as well as an equipped lab for constant bio-feedback - as well as vast expertise - we’re simply guessing. And we can’t even be sure what is causal or coincidental. I’ve sort of despaired of that. Especially since none of the published information relative to our objectives has ever been done on the human penis - it’s all about animal tendons or other parts of the body.

I think the most promising areas for us include deep and damp heat, using a number of different angles of stretching, as well as strategic breaks for deconditioning. I’m not sure we’ll ever develop a magic cocktail supplement. And I’m also fairly convinced that over-pulling is a mistake. I started off slowly and made good gains (perhaps simply newbie gains?), but as I tried to “rush to the finish line,” I began pulling like a madman (practically ripping my dick off) and my length gains ceased. When I think of my slow-talking, slow-moving buddy, I’m sure he never pulled like that or jelqing until his head almost popped off, but he’s made insane gains.

Sometimes I wonder if we don’t make this too complicated. If you were to discuss PE with the guy, I bet you’d be disappointed….he’s hardly an authority. Yet, how could his gains be discounted?

Originally Posted by wadzilla
Yeah, I understand where you’re coming from, I just think it’s a bit of over-reaching. Unless we have a number of test subjects, including a control group, as well as an equipped lab for constant bio-feedback - as well as vast expertise - we’re simply guessing. And we can’t even be sure what is causal or coincidental. I’ve sort of despaired of that. Especially since none of the published information relative to our objectives has ever been done on the human penis - it’s all about animal tendons or other parts of the body.

I think the most promising areas for us include deep and damp heat, using a number of different angles of stretching, as well as strategic breaks for deconditioning. I’m not sure we’ll ever develop a magic cocktail supplement. And I’m also fairly convinced that over-pulling is a mistake. I started off slowly and made good gains (perhaps simply newbie gains?), but as I tried to “rush to the finish line,” I began pulling like a madman (practically ripping my dick off) and my length gains ceased. When I think of my slow-talking, slow-moving buddy, I’m sure he never pulled like that or jelqing until his head almost popped off, but he’s made insane gains.

Sometimes I wonder if we don’t make this too complicated. If you were to discuss PE with the guy, I bet you’d be disappointed….he’s hardly an authority. Yet, how could his gains be discounted?

Have you read the whole thread? I know there is a lot here but many of you concerns are addressed.

Originally Posted by wadzilla
You want your “length” to say ahead of your “strength.”

Well put.

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