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Why gains slow!

If you were taking a collagenase or relaxin in *extreme* doses then I think it could be an issue for those that have very physical/athletic roles. Vit-E is taken by millions systemically and I know of no incidents from it. Bromelain will not touch healthy tissue at all. It is used as a debriding agent in cleaning out scars before surgery (you could load the area with maggots instead for a similar result :)

Originally Posted by Shiver
Which supplements are you referring to?
Some supplements are just not going to go through the skin because of their molecular weight.

Any substance that denatures collagen. If it can’t be applied topically (or via injections), then I question whether it is wise to use them at all.

I just found this interesting article on connective tissue. I found it on a site advertising steroids, which would make me question its accuracy. However, everthing it says agrees with what I’ve read from other sources, so I give it a thumbs up.

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articl…e-tissue-01.htm
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articl…e-tissue-02.htm
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articl…e-tissue-03.htm
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articl…e-tissue-04.htm

Attached Files
connective-tissue-01.pdf
(111.7 KB, 16 views)
connective-tissue-02.pdf
(123.4 KB, 8 views)
connective-tissue-03.pdf
(113.9 KB, 6 views)
connective-tissue-04.pdf
(113.0 KB, 2 views)

Guys,

I had just read the first link when I posted these. The subsequent links are very informative and answer many questions posed on this and other threads. These include

—The role of Vitamin C
—The role of nutrition
—The role of Vitamin E
—The role of NSAIDs

Mucho info. Required reading, IMO.

I’m just running out the door, I’ll read them when I get back. It sounds interesting!


Start a dialogue! The Gay Role Poll is waiting for your vote! :)

All truth goes through three stages: First it is ridiculed. Then it is violently opposed. Finally it is accepted as self evident. -Schopenhauer

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. -Richard Dawkins

Here’s a very simple possible answer to the question, why do gains slow with training.

Collagen fibers tend to align along the lines of applied stress. The more the stress, the more complete the alignment. The more the fibers align, the harder it is to stretch the tissues. Collagen has a higher tensile strength than steel.

Maybe that’s all there is to it. Deconditioning would then consist of allowing the orientation of the fibers to become more random, not necessarily to have fewer fibers.

Just an idea speedily posted. Feel free to differ.

I skimmed through it, very interesting.

I’ve wondered about that, just taking a long break. Then you would be essentially, a newbie again, wouldn’t you?

I need to read back through this thread, toward the beginning there was talk of collagen and collagenase. What it the difference, or importance between the two? Does anyone have a “laymans” interpretation of that?


Start a dialogue! The Gay Role Poll is waiting for your vote! :)

All truth goes through three stages: First it is ridiculed. Then it is violently opposed. Finally it is accepted as self evident. -Schopenhauer

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. -Richard Dawkins

Collagen is the protein that collagen fibers are made from. Collagenase is an enzyme that breaks down collagen. During tissue remodeling, there’s a balance between the synthesis of new collagen (by fibroblasts) and the breakdown of old collagen (by action of collagenase).

ModestoMan, thanks for those links. Elzi certainly knows her stuff. She hangs out, or at least used to, on misc.fitness.weights. She might be willing to respond to sincere, well-written questions about stretching connective tissue in the context of PE.

No, I’m not volunteering to ask her.

In the ideas about which supplements to take or not take, it seems that the most important thing is to get the balance right. I know it sounds obvious, but in BB terms it would be called a positive nitrogen balance. In our terms it might be a little more complicated, but hopefully not too much.

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
Here’s a very simple possible answer to the question, why do gains slow with training.

Collagen fibers tend to align along the lines of applied stress. The more the stress, the more complete the alignment. The more the fibers align, the harder it is to stretch the tissues. Collagen has a higher tensile strength than steel.

Here’s an interesting paper that I think lends support to this theory:

http://www.jhc.org/cgi/content/full/50/11/1469

Quote
Collagen fibers became rapidly orientated in the direction of the force exerted on the fibers. The molecular processes that are the basis of these rapid changes in orientation of ECM components are unknown but will be the subject of further studies. Understanding of these processes not only has histological importance but also is of major importance for the (plastic) surgeon. Knowledge about mechanical properties of skin helps the (plastic) surgeon to predict and optimize results of different treatments, e.g., to close large wounds.

MM,

That is what I said (kind of!) a few pages back and would definitely explain my fantastic early progress as well as my gains after a deconditioning break.

That last study sort of makes me wonder whether people can make quicker girth gains by stretching for 30 minutes before switching over to squeezes, Uli’s, etc.

I know the tunica is different from skin (the tissue described in the study), but there may still be some realignment of collagen fibrils after 30 minutes of stretching, which leaves the tunica less resistant to girth work.

The last study also makes me wonder whether jelqing is such an effective form of PE because it basically applies stress to the tunica both lengthwise and girthwise (circumferentially). Jelqing may prevent excessive alignment of collagen fibrils along either “direction.” Because the fibrils can’t align to resist added stress, higher resistance to stress can only be achieved by adding more fibrils—i.e., tunica enlargement or (heaven forbid) thickening.

I guess a counterargument could be that the tunica has two layers—an outer lengthwise layer and an inner girthwise layer. Jelqing may transmit virtually all the lenthwise stress to the outer layer, where the fibrils can align longitudinally, and virtually all the girthwise stress to the inner layer, where the fibrils can align circumferentially.

So perhaps the body’s not so stupid afterall :( .

But still, some circumferential stress must be applied to the outer layer, which does, after all, expand girthwise during a jelq. Likewise for the inner layer, which expands lengthwise. So, maybe jelqing does provide a small benefit in randomizing the fibril alignment.

Of course, this may all be nonsense, because fibril alignment doesn’t, by itself, say anything about growth. For all I know, alignment actually promotes growth by convincing the body that it’s not strong enough to resist applied forces, even when the fibrils are aligned.

So, please pass the salt :) .

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