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Why gains slow!

Originally Posted by ModestoMan

I wonder if this works any better (for PE or overconditionaing) than taking Advil every day?

Edit: I meant to say “PE or overconditioning.”

Here’s a study showing how a PD-like condition may be induced in a rat penis by injecting a substance similar to TGF-beta.

What I find interesting about this study is how the tunica changes after the TGF-b is injected.

http://www.bjui.org/81/3/article/bju529.asp

Quote
The most prominent histological changes were chronic inflammatory cellular infiltration, focal and diffuse elastosis, thickening, disorganization and clumping of the collagen bundles. The ultrastructural changes were in the form of densely packed collagen, fragmented and scarce elastic fibres, separation of neuronal fibres by interposing clumps of packed collagen, and perivascular collagen deposition as a part of the reorganization of the interstitial matrix.

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Shiver,

Here is a piece of the puzzle. TGF-B is not overexpressed in the TA’s of normal men (control group) ostensibly having normal erections. Don’t know it is overexpressed with PE. I seriously doubt that study has been done.

Maybe I’ll search under chronic masturbation, or something.

http://www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Fr…After%20Him.pdf

Quote
Transforming growth factor beta (TGF-B) has been implicated in many chronic fibrotic conditions. Expression of TGF-B 1, 2, and 3 proteins was detected in samples of Peyronie’s plaques, but not in the tunica albuginea from a control group. In animals, intratunical injection of cytomodulin, a synthetic heptopeptide with TGF-B-like activity, can induce a Peyronie’s disease-like condition in the rat penis with chronic cellular infiltration, focal and diffuse elastosis, and thickening and disorganisation of collagen bundles. Thus, studies in animals could offer the opportunity of testing the effects of drug treatment.

The life of a normal (control group) penis is like a week in Bermuda compared to a lifetime in the salt mines for a PE’ers. The only difference I can see is that when the PE’er stops, the TGF abates, whereas in PD it just keeps on coming. I’m 90%+ sure that anything to successfully treat Peyronies would also help a PE’er.

Interesting, but I’m not sure what it means. Maybe that fibrin alone is enough to kick-start PD.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/…3&dopt=Abstract

Quote
Fibrin as an inducer of fibrosis in the tunica albuginea of the rat: a new animal model of Peyronie’s disease.

Davila HH, Ferrini MG, Rajfer J, Gonzalez-Cadavid NF.

Department of Urology, UCLA School of Medicine, Los Angeles, CA, USA.

OBJECTIVES: To investigate the role of fibrin in inducing fibrosis in the tunica albuginea (TA) of the rat penis, to develop a new animal model for Peyronie’s disease (PD).

MATERIALS AND METHODS: The TA of rats (five per group per period) were injected with either saline, fibrin, transforming growth factor-beta1 (TGF-beta1) or TGF-beta1 plus fibrin; the rats were killed at 1, 3, and 6 weeks after injection. Images were analysed quantitatively from tissue sections stained for collagen (Masson trichrome), fibrin (Verhoeff’s stain) and elastin (Hart’s stain), and immunostained for TGF-beta1, inducible nitric oxide synthase (iNOS), heme oxygenase 1 (HO1), alpha-smooth muscle actin (ASMA), apoptosis (TUNEL) and plasminogen activator inhibitor (PAI). Collagen fibre organization was characterized by electron microscopy. Human PD plaque tissue and normal human TA were assayed for fibrin by immunohistochemistry in nine samples.

RESULTS: At 1 week after injection of fibrin into the rat TA, only oedema was present; at 3 weeks, the oedema developed into a characteristic fibrotic PD-like plaque. The injection of TGF-beta1 into the TA also induced oedema in the TA at 1 and 3 weeks but there was very little evidence of a recognisable plaque at either time. Injection with TGF-beta1 plus fibrin resulted in oedema at 1 week but at 3 weeks there was a smaller plaque than with fibrin only. At 6 weeks the induced plaques in the fibrin-only and fibrin + TGF-beta1 groups persisted, and were comparable with those elicited at this time by TGF-beta1 alone. The control animals showed no pathology at any of the sample times. At 3 weeks the PD plaque induced by injection with fibrin alone had not only greater expression of TGF-beta1 than the TA of the animals receiving TGF-beta1 alone, but also greater levels of other markers of fibrosis, e.g. HO1 (reactive oxygen species), ASMA (presence of myofibroblasts), apoptosis, and PAI (inhibitor of fibrinolysis). iNOS, a known antifibrotic agent, was also increased. In human PD plaque tissue, fibrin was detected by immunohistochemistry in all nine specimens.

CONCLUSIONS: These results suggest that fibrin, when introduced into the TA of the rat penis, acts as a potential profibrotic protein, possibly via the local release of TGF-beta1, and induces a plaque not only histologically similar to that induced by TGF-beta1 but to that of the human condition. Because fibrin can extravasate from the blood into the human TA after an injury to the TA, and because fibrin persists in the plaque tissue, we hypothesise that fibrin may play a key role in the pathogenesis of human PD.

PMID: 12780843 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
Edit: I meant to say “PE or overconditioning.”

I did it again! I meant to say “PD and overconditioning.”

The way I read it is this:

Trauma -> oedema -> Fibrin -> … -> TGF -> Fibrosis

If you remove or block any of the earlier stages then there’s not much scaffolding for the TGF to get to work on, whereas where fibrin is present the TGF will do a lot more building.

More support for the anti-inflammatories I’d say. My Bromelain is on it’s way :)

Originally Posted by Shiver
The life of a normal (control group) penis is like a week in Bermuda compared to a lifetime in the salt mines for a PE’ers.

Speak for yourself. I had my honeymoon in Bermuda :) .

Originally Posted by Shiver
I’m 90%+ sure that anything to successfully treat Peyronies would also help a PE’er.

It depends on how it works. Anything that breaks down collagen will probably help, as long as it doesn’t inhibit gains or excessively compromise the strength of the tissue.

If the treatment does inhibit gains, there may be some benefit to a process that proceeds in stages. First, weaken the tissue (using supplements, heat, and/or time off); second, PE like mad; third, continue PE’ing and supplement nutrition to allow rebuilding. Repeat as needed when gains slow.

I was thinking more like vets use a one time PD regime, and then vets (and newbies) use a mild to middlin’ anti-inflammatory as a daily regime.

Originally Posted by ModestoMan

If the treatment does inhibit gains, there may be some benefit to a process that proceeds in stages. First, weaken the tissue (using supplements, heat, and/or time off); second, PE like mad; third, continue PE’ing and supplement nutrition to allow rebuilding. Repeat as needed when gains slow.

Well I plan on being a human guinea pig (or is that lab rat?) in doing just this.

I have started an extended break (4 weeks minimum), along with at least 1 hour of heat everyday supplemented with 2 x 500 IU and 2000mg NOX3 daily.

My next move (exercises, duration, supplementation) is still undecided. Any ideas?

Originally Posted by Andrew69
<snip>….supplemented with 2 x 500 IU and 2000mg NOX3 daily.

what are the 2x500IU? Is that vit-E?

When you are ready to start exercising again, why not give bromelain a try? It’s dirt cheap with no sides. Start 3 days before getting back to exercise and continue ED. I say this partly from a selfish point of view because I want to see if anybody else notices the same thing as me (almost no edema and superfast bruise removal being the most notable visual cues).

Shiver,
Yep Vitamin E…..How the hell did I miss that!!

I’m game to give bromelin a try. I started following the bromelin/papaya thread and then sort of forgot about it. Time to go and re-read it.

I think it’s important to consider topical applications of supps rather than systemic. The penis is probably the only organ in the body that we DON’T want to strengthen when subjecting it to stress.

Taking supps systemically to soften or denature collagen thoughout the body sounds like a generally unhealthy thing to do.

Which supplements are you referring to?

Some supplements are just not going to go through the skin because of their molecular weight.

Originally Posted by ModestoMan

Taking supps systemically to soften or denature collagen thoughout the body sounds like a generally unhealthy thing to do.

Good point and one I agree with, but I hardly think that the supplements I am taking , in the doses I am taking, would do this.

Would you disagree?

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