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Tongkat Ali?

Originally Posted by kbvk
Do you mind telling us what other formula you are experimenting with for lowering SHBG?
I have heard that stinging netlle root extract is supposed to free up bound testosterene by lowering SHBG. Have you experimented with this herb?

Hi kbvk,

Absolutely (some times I hold back a little while till I get lab results - but since you asked so nicely . . . :) ).

First, nettle root extract in the proper potency is a very effective SHBG mediator based on what I’ve read. Based on that research (probably along what you’ve read, too) the botanical mix I am testing at present is Protein Power’s UNLEASHED because it contains, among other things, nettle root extract. But, that is only part of the story. I am waiting for Protein Power’s PostCycle (currently on order) to stack with the Unleashed and see what that will do. I have a lot of work to do on figuring out doseage as I am not into BB, just interested in preserving my health and hormonal balance. I am cautiously optomistic that the 1-2 punch (in moderation) of Unleashed/PostCycle will produce some significant results. If not, then its off to the Arimidex/botanical strategy. For more information just do a google search on protein+power+unleashed.

Hope this Helps,

MrTiPS


Then - BPEL 5.9, EG 5.2 - Now: BPEL 7.2, EG 5.6 Listen woman, "Don't bitch at me for burning the candle at both ends - just get me some more wax!"

Originally Posted by MrTips
Hi kbvk,

Absolutely (some times I hold back a little while till I get lab results - but since you asked so nicely . . . :) ).

First, nettle root extract in the proper potency is a very effective SHBG mediator based on what I’ve read. Based on that research (probably along what you’ve read, too) the botanical mix I am testing at present is Protein Power’s UNLEASHED because it contains, among other things, nettle root extract. But, that is only part of the story. I am waiting for Protein Power’s PostCycle (currently on order) to stack with the Unleashed and see what that will do. I have a lot of work to do on figuring out doseage as I am not into BB, just interested in preserving my health and hormonal balance. I am cautiously optomistic that the 1-2 punch (in moderation) of Unleashed/PostCycle will produce some significant results. If not, then its off to the Arimidex/botanical strategy. For more information just do a google search on protein+power+unleashed.

Hope this Helps,

MrTiPS

Thanks. What are your results with UNLEASHED itself?
Unleashed supplement facts as per bodybuilding.com:

Serving Size: 3 Capsules
Servings Per Container: 30

Amount Per Serving:

Avena Sativa 500 mgs
(with at least 7% Avenacosides A&B)
Muara Puama: 12:1 active extract 500mgs
Trimethyglycine 1000mgs
Xanthoparmilia Scabrosa: 50mgs
Urtica dioica: 100 mgs
Ashwagandha 500 mgs
(Standardized to 1.5%Withanolides)

Directions: Take two servings daily, one before breakfast and another before retiring, for one week. Then one serving daily for three weeks. Repeat dosing schedule. As a pro-sexual aide, take 2 additional capsules 30 minutes before sexual activity.

It contains 100mg Uritica dioca. If my understanding is correct, Uritica ioca is active ingredient of stinging nettle. If so it seems to be very potent extract.

Urtica dioica is the botanical name for stinging nettle. As for the 100mg in the Unleashed formulation, I’m not sure Protein Factory says what the strength is - haven’t seen the data.

My experience with Unleashed as a libido enhancer is muted as compared to the Tongkat Ali - but that is not necessarily bad as TA may overstimulate LH as I got hot and engorged with TA. There is some engorgement with Unleashed, too, but my response to it is muted because I may still be recovering from the last cycle of TA that overstimulated LH - at least that is my suspicion and that is why I want to stack the Post Cycle.

It is really early in the game with Unleashed for me to draw any more conclusions as I am weeks away from further blood spot work. That said, the formula in Unleashed (and especially in combination with Post Cycle) is very attractive as it goes after the SHBG and gently stimulates the further production of free T - and the Post Cycle goes after Estrogen and also works to cleanse and protect the liver.

On that note, I suspect that anyone that is doing any form of male hormone replacement therapy either by injecting T, taking the patch, using a transdermal, or using botanicals, and then trying to jump start the gonads after a cycle needs to take steps at protecting the liver as some of the metabolites involved are toxic. Milk thistle/milkweed extracts are useful in this regard (silamiryn?) and LEF has a very good one. If a person has elevated liver enzymes via blood test (even mildly elevated) from taking things like I mention above it would be wise to detox and protect one’s liver. Just a caution.

All the Best,

MrTiPS

Been taking Tongkat ali 1:50 extract (400mg) for 2 weeks, I ‘m taking 2400mg per day. I’ve experienced the improved focus and throbbing balls but no increased libido.

Any suggestions? should I take a higher dose?


Last edited by dongalong : 01-28-2007 at .

Have you taken a break? If not, I would take a 4 day break now, even a week.

Dongalong: You experienced no other effects other than what you have mentioned?

Originally Posted by Jafar_t
Dongalong: You experienced no other effects other than what you have mentioned?


Not really, I as expecting a more noticable effect, like with other users, to be more obsessed about sex, more easily turned on, harder erections, etc.

The focus improvement is really great for my job but I was expecting more action around the penis area, the throbbing in my balls is barely noticable. I am going on a week’s off cycle and maybe next week will try a higher dose maybe up from 2400 to 3200mg.

Faster muscle development may also be an effect, I’ve even been eating like a carnivore as recommended and have started cycling to work, recovery seems much faster than I’m used to.

After searching around, I can’t see how the American made TA is as potent. Meaning step by step to be the purest and extracted correctly. I’m under the assumption that the other companies, in the states, that make Longifolia don’t have the full effect as Pasak does. I also thought that the companies in the states don’t get the extract from the roots as Pasak does (from the leaves?) and that’s why their product is inferior, and the other is cheaper. Is that correct? Once I get some more extra money together I think I’m going to purchase some of Pasak’s from eBay power sellers that buy in bulks and distribute it much cheaper.

I also find the sexual side effects rather fascinating (as posted in earlier on in this thread):

Penile and testicular hypertrophy (increased size) can be a long term side effect, especially with the use of very large dosages, and in those who use tongkat ali at a younger age. How young? 20\’s early 30\’s? This effect can be traced back to the fact that increased testosterone secretion by testicular Leydig cells induces growth of surrounding tissue. (Penile and testicular size increases during puberty, too, are caused by the activation of testicular Leydig cells and the subsequent increased testosterone secretion by these cells; tongkat ali follows the same pathway). Like size increases during puberty, those caused by persistent use of large tongkat ali dosages do not reverse.

If using larger doses, once it’s worked up to of course, wouldn’t it be wise to use some Milk Thistle? I think it would be almost impossible to have a human fatality; that is if you’re healthy enough for it. The dosage for that would be more than most people could even think about taking times a lot more.

I also understand that you can either do 20 on and 10 off or 5 on and 2 off. The latter would be of more reasonable cycling or is that not the case?

Also on the testingtongkatali page it was noted that Pasak’s average mercury count for TA was most at 0.08%, which is basically nothing, I think. Either way, as we know, garlic helps extract mercury from the body so I would assume it couldn’t hurt to use that. Has anyone had any good size increases from using this. I’m talking about months worth here.

I took TA for about 20 days, during which I did experience a dull pain in my testes and a much higher libido, i.e. easier and harder erections, larger flaccid hang, more precum and a 2 to 3-fold increase in ejaculation volume. During the last few days, I experienced significant side effects including anxiety, palpitations and insomnia. It has been one week since I stopped taking TA and I am still experiencing the effects.

In terms of muscular strength, I did feel much stronger when working out, which I think should also be attributed to TA.

One important fact is that TA increases your testosterone level and hence your libido, but not erection capacity (i.e. like viagra and cialis) per se.

So you took it for the 20/10 cycle I assume? Maybe the 5/2 cycle would hold better with you possibly. Palpitations might not occur on the lower cycling. Unless you actually did the 5/2 cycle for 20 days and then in that case it’s mute. Hmm… I might have to email them and ask them to define persistent usage :) . I figure that would be anywhere from up to 3-6 months maybe a year. I’ll see if I can find any case studies showing large size increases not returning to normal. Either way it doesn’t seem to be too much like a shot in the dark…

A WORD OF CAUTION -

If anyone takes a lot of TA for an extended period of time you run the risk of shutting down your testes, in my opinion. TA seems to stimulate the testes by first stimulating the release of lutenizing hormone LH (as well as it lowers SHBG - at least my blood tests show that much). You get a serious increase in free Testosterone and most of the posts I have read here suggest that you all are experiencing that to a degree. But the suggestions to cycle TA are a warning and should be taken seriously - and, more is not necessarily better.

Just because studies in a lab where rats were fed INSANE amounts of TA and their genitals were swollen does not mean that their genitalia actually grew permanently (not unless they were pubescent rats) - and the lab studies were of limited duration so this issue of penile “growth” was not proven just that there was marked engorgement. So, I do not think it is wise to take larger and larger doses of TA over extended time periods to try and gain penile growth because of the potential for testicular damage and/or the LH pathway getting shut down via endogenous biofeedback is real.

Whatever you do, make sure you have before, during, and after blood tests performed and measure totalT, freeT, SHBG, DHEAs, E, and LH. Baseline IGF1 is useful, too. You need to measure you body’s response as TA is a very powerful herb. JMHO and I’ve used TA, albeit cautiously, and if I ever use it again it will be with even MORE caution.

Please Be Careful,

MrTiPS

One concern I’ve got with using Tonkat and similar supplements is that I can’t be sure that what I’m getting in the capsule is what is written on the label. What guaranties do we have that there aren’t any contaminants in the manufacturers’ formulas or that some rogue manufacturers don’t add a sprinkle viagria/steriods etc. to give us the impression that their product is working?

I guess that can be said about any supplement but with many of the mainstream supplements, due to their near universal availability, they are used and tested by a large portion of the population, including professional athletes and teams, so in my opinion there’s more of a guarantee of what you’re getting.

Having said that, even though I am slightly sceptical I am seriously considering trying tongkat. I’m just looking for a supplier that I feel comfortable with at the moment.

Has anyone ever dealt with eurotonkat?

Would like other board member’s opinion of the above.

Thanks.


2005-05-10 Bpel: 6.188 Eg: 4.875

2005-06-29 6.375 4.875

Check out TongkatAli.org. They tell how they make their tongkat ali and its the best in the world, IMO.

Also, like MrTips said, breaks are NECESSARY!! It’s not one of those things where you say, “I won’t take a break and see what happens.” Its just like if you took steroids for long periods of time without cycling. You mess up your body for good. That is why steroids are considered dangerous. Because people abuse them. If you use steroids right, you can be perfectly fine your whole life.

In my opinion, the Indonesian company’s suggested dosage (4 X 1:50 per day) is too high, and that’s why it caused side effects.

According to some research, TA’s effect is to increase the number of Leydig cells in the testes, not to increase LH. If that is the case, it should not shut down the endogenous production of testosterone. In either case, I really thing that TA should be used with caution because the long-term effects are unknown.

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