Thunder's Place

The big penis and mens' sexual health source, increasing penis size around the world.

The Perfect 4AD Carrier


I agree. I’m absolutely convinced that the vehicle is a critical component. 4AD products for body building are aimed at high availability systemically, so none of them will be optimal for our purposes.

I’ve said this many times, but it seems to fall on deaf ears: What about MSM? It does pretty much what DMSO does but without the garlic taste or skin irritability issues. It’s used widely for delivery of arthritic medicines, as it has been shown to be available at the joint capsules (now that’s deep penetration!). It would seem a logical choice. Another thing about it is it increases permiability of the cell wall. Couple that with a low molecular weight and a bulldozer like ability to carry other actives with it, dissolves to 16% in water by volume, and is a useful skeletal supplement in its own right. It’s a food rather than a drug. Damn it’s good for you health!

Oh, it’s cheap too….

I knew about MSM. The problem being it is also used to treat hair loss. it effects the 5ar enzyme. I will look into how it does this.

Thanks for the info.

Sorry to pick on your post Shiver but this seemed like a good topic to split out.

Thunder's Place: increasing penis size one dick at a time.

Once again, It effects 5ar. Need to look into how it does this. It may not pose a problem in our case.

I have a thought. I will attempt this one myself. Let you guys know when I know. Shiver has great experience with transdermal methods. This is something I lack.

Cya at 8.

Last edited by Cya at 8 : 08-01-2003 at .

Can you use DMSO to help out with substances that are not penetrating deep enough?

“You see, I don’t want to do good things, I want to do great things.” ~Alexander Joseph Luthor

I know Lewd Ferrigno personally.

DMSO is basically MSM. Or atleast thats what it becomes once inside the blood stream.

DMSO has slightly better properties than MSM, but the stuff you buy in the shops is industrial grade. Medical grade is not generally available. It’s also not very nice to use, as your breath and skin take on a rather unpleasant odour. They say that if you rub some on the sole of your foot, you will taste it within a few seconds. It’s that effective! MSM will do much the same, however since it doesn’t taste so much, it’s generally hard to detect. I dissolve 10g of MSM crystals in orange everyday. It’s not a pleasant taste, but not unbearable. For our purposes, we could just mix with water, or IPM or aloe vera gel if you prefer

No actives that we use will be free of systemic effects entirely however. In going from the skin surface to the target organ it passes by a lot of capillaries, and some of it is bound to get caught up. Most penetrants *only* go this far, but between us we should be able to come up with something pretty reasonable.

I’ve used 4AD quite extensively over the years, and feel quite safe about using it. The other (more effective) options are unknowns to me. I would stick with 4AD for this project personally, except that I use 5AR blockers, so the testosterone route will be of no use to me unless I drop the 5AR blockers and swtich to a topical hair product. Any suggestions on the topical hair product would be much appreciated. I’m thinking Spiro at the moment.

I didn’t know about MSM inhibiting 5AR. I had considered making a topical for the scalp with it, but my reasoning was entirely different. I thought that since it is so good at sorting out crosslinked fibres (the ones that didn’t bind properly to sulphur), then it might be good for clearing out collagenous pores that have become blocked (scarred) over time due to the DHT aggravation, which then prevent hair re-growing even in the absence of DHT.

I’ll do some more searching…

OH and IPM

Warning: The consensus among the medical professionals on this board is that this type of PE could result in infertility and permanent hormonal imbalance.

I am no expert on carriers, but the product Whitehall used was composed of 4-AD, 50mg/mL dissolved in Ethanol SDA 40 and brought to 20% with IPM.

Jones used the same but with ISOH instead of EtOH and heating before application.

Several people have used the 4-ADerm product and from what I can gather, most have not gained or not gained as much as Whitehall and Jones.

I don’t want to encourage anyone to try 4-AD, but if someone is going to do it anyway, maybe they should buy 4-ADerm and add IPM or make their own solution from scratch.

If anyone is going to make their own from scratch, I would strongly encourage you to post your math before application. I would hate for someone to accidentally make their own at 500mg/mL or 5mg/mL.

It is probably good to look at other carriers and 3-alpha, but it would also be useful to know if the results of Jones and Whitehall can be repeated.


Also, at the risk of pointing out the obvious, it’s worth mentioning that 1mg of 4AD is not the same as 1mg 3alpha. We don’t know the degree of risk since they each have a very different profile, and I suspect that individual responses will vary greatly.

On a 1-10 scale, I’d class 4AD as a 2, and 3Alpha as an 8 or 9, if DHT was the measure of a 10, and Testosterone I would pin at about a 6. These guestimates are based on what I feel is the ‘capacity’ for serious long term side effects rather than their effectiveness. With 4AD and Test you can guide and limit their side effects with Ari/HGC/clomid/proviron etc. But DHT is the end of the line. DHT isn’t widely used in the BB world or many other places due to it’s low anabolic characteristics (gets mostly deactivated in muscle tissue), so we don’t know a lot about the sides. If the perfect local carrier could exist, then much of this would be moot, but since it doesn’t exist, it pays to be prudent.

I hate to be someone who posts warnings about safety when I have openly proposed the Darwin theory of natural selection in trials, but I’ve learned that talking about substances enough can make us feel comfortable with them enough to think that they are not dangerous. They can still fuck you over. That said, I think that some day soon I’m going to be a lab rat for this.

I am too but I am not going to tell someone to mix something up and put it on their dick. Darwins theory should knock off stupidity but in our case, I dont think so……Yet….

Shiver is correct in his statements, in my mind.

I have much more information concerning this topic than I have posted. This is because I choose to try my theories on me rather than have others follow. If I find something that increases the effect of growth, then I will post it. You guys have my word on that.


I think the cat is out of the bag now and those with a won’t have probably clicked a link and bought whats been recommended so far. Maybe they are wasting their cash but I don’t myself see anything wrong with discussing a subject thats already out there. Some things can be worked through with discussion amongst a few people with knowledge, and often apparently dead streams lead to something more fruitful, maybe transdermal application of something that simply encourages the tissues to deform more easily from exercises?

Thunder's Place: increasing penis size one dick at a time.

I would like to mix IPM into the 8 ounce bottle of 4aderm. Does anyone know how I should do this? How many mg. of IPM? Should I use heat?

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