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The Chemical PE Thread

Originally Posted by Atmospheric
I always found that study to be interesting, since I’d like to think Verapamil is a worthwhile topical compound. The results are unfortunate, but I find this excerpt from the aforementioned 2011 patent add-on to be interesting:
”The inventor treated several patients’ Peyronies’s Disease and penis enlargement patients with the recommended dosing and frequency for direct Verapamil injections into the penis and into plaque with no observable effect. However, the inventor discovered that certain doses of Calcium Channel Blockers and Calmodulin Blockers, when applied topically, infused continuously, or applied intermittently at a higher frequency than was recommended in the medical literature improved their clinical efficacy.”

So what he essentially alleges, is that you have to use much more than the typical dose, with more frequent application for it to work as it should on the tunica. Not sure where I stand on the whole thing. I’m glad that apparently he found a way to properly utilize such a compound, but the results of both studies leave me feeling somewhat conflicted.

I assume that in the study mentioned in the earlier post they used the ‘typical’ dose. They said that even though it didn’t infiltrate the tunica there was a small systemic absorption. So it could be that the patent holder used much more than the typical dose and even though it didn’t infiltrate the tunica it was absorbed systemically and eventually it reached the tunica(?).


Starting stats: 6.4" / 5.6" Current Stats: 7.4" / 5.8" Short term goal: 7" / 6" Long term goal: 8" / 6.5"

Originally Posted by alin
I assume that in the study mentioned in the earlier post they used the ‘typical’ dose. They said that even though it didn’t infiltrate the tunica there was a small systemic absorption. So it could be that the patent holder used much more than the typical dose and even though it didn’t infiltrate the tunica it was absorbed systemically and eventually it reached the tunica(?).

Perhaps systemic action would give the proper effect, but in that case, I don’t know why the writings are so adamant about it being applied locally. It’s interesting to just believe that higher dosages suddenly make this compound work. Perhaps in the previous stuff, there just wasn’t enough of it to reach the tunica? Definitely an interesting conundrum.

I’ve also been interested in the complexities and possible benefits of systemic absorption. I’ve always found it to be strange that in the patent, Paba/Potaba is never applied topically, only ingested. I’ve heard that certain transdermals can have poorer absorption rates than others, so perhaps their truly is some benefit to using it systemically? I’ve also found the examples with systemic DHT added to be interesting, but that’s understandable. I’m much more curious about the few examples that mention it being injected.

But I digress.. As for Verapamil, just for reference/dosages/etc, here are the other examples from the patent’s attached extra reading:

“49 year old male with severe ED. Patient had previously experienced ongoing spontaneous priapisms and had continuous erections for 3 months. But when seen, patient was totally impotent and unable to erect. The penis was a solid fibrotic mass with extensive fibrosis of the cavernosal system. No response to PDE5’s or IC test doses. During several attempted IC injections by the inventor with extensive experience and skill in the intracavernosal injection technique, the physician was unsuccessful to achieve an aspiration which indicated that the needle had entered the cavernosal system. The skilled physician was unable to locate erectile tissues on several attempts prior to initiating Verapamil and the patient had profound erectile dysfunction with no response to maximal dose PDE5’s and maximal dose intracavemosal injections. Patient started applying Verapamil 200mg/m1 0.1 ml 5-8 times a day to the penis. After one month, the patient was re-examined and a dramatic softening of the patient’s fibrotic penis was noted, and the patient reported his first spontaneous erection in months. After 3 months of topical Verapamil, the patient’s spontaneous erections were now sometimes penetrable, and he was consistently developing penetrable erections with Viagra and Levitra with maximum firmness of 70-75%. As well, test doses of intracavernosal medication by the physician were now frequently”

“62 year old male had extensive Peyronie’s disease following several years of IC medications. The patient had developed these extensive masses of fibrotic nodular plaques throughout the entire penile shaft from 2001 through to 2008. During this time that these fibrotic changes were developing, the patients erectile dysfunction worsened, and PDE5’s were no longer giving usable erections. The strength¨dose of intracavemosal medication had increased over 2,000 percent and now instead of erections lasting over 2 hours to just prior to starting topical Verapamil therapy, a dose 2,000 percent stronger was only causing a soft semi-erection for 5-10 minutes. The patient started on Verapamil 2mg/m1 0.5 ml added to each IC dose and topical Verapamil 200mg/m1 applied 5-6 times per day. Within one month there was dramatic shrinkage of multiple plaques in the penis. After 3 months there were only three small plaques of 1-3mm diameter left and an estimated reduction of plaque volume by 95- 98% after 4 months of active treatment which remained stable for several months after stopping the topical Verapamil. As well, the patient experienced a dramatic improvement in erectile function such that the volume of intracavemosal medications were reduced by 40 percent and now instead of a brief semi-erection, the erectile response to this reduced dose was now staying hard and usable for 1 to 1 ‘A hours.”

Last night I successfully attempted my first Human Relaxin 2 shots. I took 125mcg, which is well below some of the recommendations I have read. 50-10mcg per kg of body weight. There are some lesser recommendations but so I just went low my first time. So I had already taken a 5.5mcg injection of PGE-1 and it was working well. {I missed tonight and my injection needle bent so I didnt deliver deep and it burns, hate when that happens}. Anyway I digress… I has a rubber ring on and was pumping, then just before I started to pump so after put on my new PENIMASTER extender I took my 125mcg of HR2. I didnt know if it would burn or what, but I expected it not based on what I had read. But I was apprehensive anyway about doing something new. The PGE-1 was starting to ware off so it was time to use the extender after pumping. I felt no pain from the shot, got into the bath and started to water pump. I have a pump with a meter on it and I was at between 105 and 200 for 15 minutes and all went well, after I got out and put on my new PeniMaster. It was crazy to figure out with out reading the manual, and it was still odd to use my PENIMASTER. I finally got it to work, and I had to shift to a larger diaphram on the unit because the one it comes with was too small. Anyway it works and it does so better then a phallosan which I also have. You have to cut the nozzle off then pump the air out of the bulb put it on the unit and screw the thing to unleash the vaccume. You have to have your glans right on the hole and it sucks you in. The feeling is actually good, feels like a tight butt hole lol, I actually got hard lol. Its still worked. I am not to sure about it yet because when I take my glans out its white and discolored and stuff, and when I touch it it turns white then quick fills back it with red blood. Anyway the Relaxin did make me feel more relaxed, I thought I was high it the bathtub. Not sure if it was subjective or not. But anyway it seemed to go well, no pain from the HR2. But boy I have a bit of pain tonight by having missed my shot! Now my PGE-1 is pooled under my skin and not deep in my tunica. It burns more like this… Lots more and its a waste tooo!!! No effects and it cost 5.5mcg, pure loss… Well maybe not, if it breaks some links under the skin in my collagen. But thats a heavy way to go burn wise…

BTW I was going to try my IGF-2 tonight, but alas this pain may push it off until tomorrow… We shall see..

BTW, I also have 10 PRP kits I am going to be experimenting with. I even have new applicator to activate the platelets. Now I just need a kit to draw blood! I need 13cc’s, 12 blood and 1cc anticoagulant. So I am almost there on this front too. Even if you dont get much growth it really is super good for penis health and rejuvination. I think PGE-1 may help block certain platelets which may help the same way verapamil does by blocking certain fibroblasts, not sure. But it didnt hurt the 2 other times I have done it with the doctor. I did a PRP shot for my wifes boobs but ran out before I could try me again. Now I have some more, but need blood draw supplies. Darn! Any until I get my hand on that PRP will have to wait.

Unit then my HR2 and IGF-2 experiments continue. I also have some PGCL and want some DMSO, but I understand it will act transdermally in its own right and is 1000’s of time stronger or something like that then PGF2a, which is in the patent.

PGF2a plus PGE-1 or PGE-2 [not both] synergize each other, and PGF2a plus IGF-1 is supposed to synergize. Now my understanding is IGF-2 is like IGF-1 but more potent in effect and broader in scope as well. My thought is PGF2a plus PGE\1GF-2 may synergize. I may try the PGCL, IGF-2 and PGE-1 combo. I also have potential access to PGE-2, which I understand burns injected so I may make a transdermal with it and PGF2a.

Anyway I may reinject PGE-1 again tonight and go for the IGF-2. I get nervous on first voyages… LOL

Wish me luck. I will report my experience later.

Inui

Did another dose of Relaxin-2 today. I took 250mcg and I injected into my ligament whilst I was streatching via my PENIMASTER. Everything seemed normal at first, then I got to feeling strange. I get the subjective feeling of some kind of relaxation in my body and mind. Its strange, but only lasts like a hour or so. But it took an edge off anger or made me feel more peaceful, or pehaps it was just me. Anyway I digress.

What happened different today was when I took my penimaster off, the glans was a big as I have seen it be EVER. It was huge for me, and I have taken the penimaster off a number of times and never had that result. Was it the Relaxin-2, I dont know but it looked as big or bigger then it does through the cylinder of my pump when underwater. Did the Relaxin-2 make me more elastic or something? Its to early to tell, but what an odd result.

Tonight I was going to take some IGF-2\HR2…

I did take the IGF-2 for the first time also, the next night. I had mistakenly posted in the wrong area in my previous post.

The IGF-2 did not burn or feel bad in anyway I could notice, but I was in the midst of PGE-1 pains for having not injected deep enough, my needle bent on the way in and the stuff went in at an angle but look like it went dead in.

Anyway the IGF-2 seem to go fine into the tunica, dead in just like with the PGE-1 and all my stuff. I only do sub-q by mistake and when I do with PGE-1 I get the burns… But at least I feel like the PGE-1 is remodeling at an excellerated rate when I fail like this.

Anyway, I am going to do some PGE-1 at about 5.5mcg, then after I get hard put on the O-ring I have for a cock ring then inject a combo of IGF-2\HR2…

Next day I intend to run an IGF-2\IGF-1\HR2 combo after PGE-1….

I have some more long range plans in the works as well. My PGF2a fell through kind of because I can only order 5 vials at a time with 50mg per 10ml in a vial. So the cost went up 5 times on me so I have to wait on this one.

But I do have the PGCL still and some PABA pills that were labeled for penis enlargement, but the site has stopped since selling them. I think I may dissolve these in some DMSO.

I have plans for a super charged transdermal I plan to make. I get some powdered PGF2a and some PGE-2 powder, some PABA, some IGF-1 and IGF-2 and some PGCL into some DMSO. Eventually some more stuff.

Currently I have my chemist guy seeing if he and make a verapamil\collegan gel or ointment made up. I was thinking of getting some verapamil and some trifluoperazine pills and pill pulvarizer and mix these in some DMSO.

Cant forget to start using some of my transdermal DHT gel…

On the far horizon, I plan to obtain some SHH and some VEGF and see how these do… Its like its a combination lock and we are picking at it… Which growth factors to supress, which to foster…

Also thanks to Atmospheric, he validated my hunch and something I was going to try and strongly suspected my self about myostatin. Now I have a low cost source for some Follistatin I am for sure going to obtain this ASAP. The patent thinks near 17% weight gain in certain mammals. Which I think they think is about an inch, just in length or girth I dont know… I hope Girth…

Inuic

Originally Posted by inuic
But I do have the PGCL still and some PABA pills that were labeled for penis enlargement, but the site has stopped since selling them. I think I may dissolve these in some DMSO.

I have plans for a super charged transdermal I plan to make. I get some powdered PGF2a and some PGE-2 powder, some PABA, some -1 and IGF-2 and some PGCL into some DMSO. Eventually some more stuff.

Currently I have my chemist guy seeing if he and make a verapamil\collegan gel or ointment made up. I was thinking of getting some verapamil and some trifluoperazine pills and pill pulvarizer and mix these in some DMSO.

Can’t forget to start using some of my transdermal DHT gel..

On the far horizon, I plan to obtain some SHH and some VEGF and see how these do.. Its like its a combination lock and we are picking at it.. Which growth factors to supress, which to foster..

Also thanks to Atmospheric, he validated my hunch and something I was going to try and strongly suspected my self about myostatin. Now I have a low cost source for some Follistatin I am for sure going to obtain this ASAP. The patent thinks near 17% weight gain in certain mammals. Which I think they think is about an inch, just in length or girth I don’t know.. I hope Girth..

Inuic

I’d definitely use the PGCL to supplement the injections. I actually plan on doing the same thing. It seems PGF2A needs to be injected multiple times daily to get the full effect. In our case, that’s not really possible. However, injected PGF2a + Topical PGCL (multiple times daily), seems like a great idea.

Oh, and glad to hear you’re as interested in the Myostatin study as I am. I think that one holds quite a lot of legitimacy. I’m not too well-versed in the BB community, I was under the impression that the results people got with Follistatin were not as pronounced as they should have been (or that most of it was bunk). Perhaps I’m mistaken. It might be worth looking into a Myostatin antibody from a research chemical site first. The particular one I looked into a while ago was Human pro-Myostatin (a.a. 79-92), but I’ve yet to do further research.

I mention that because in that patent they reference using something calls: pSILENCER 2.1-U6 neo-myostatin siRNA plasmid construct. I haven’t been able to find out what exactly that is. The doctors who did the research are actually listed in this patent an I know one of them (Dr. C) has done various penile-related research. They might not be too hard to get in touch with.

I suppose the other way around might work well too. Both are able to be used transdermally, so perhaps injecting the stronger PGCL and then using topical PGF2A would be better(?).

Also, since you mentioned VEGF, I agree with that idea fully. I think VEGF will do what we need it to. It seems that it interacts with all of our compounds of interest. I’m still looking into it, but here’s so research I’ve compiled thus far:

VEGF and PGE2:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11728162
"Concentrations of PGE(2) increased VEGF mRNA and protein levels. That increased expression was relatively rapid and sustained up to 8 hrs”
"Pharmacological concentrations of PGE(2) modulate VEGF expression”

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11527387
“We demonstrated that PGE(2) significantly increased ERK2 and JNK1 activation and VEGF mRNA and protein expression.”

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19275959
“Prostaglandin E(2) (PGE(2)) enhanced the expression of VEGFA, VEGFB, and VEGFC”

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15538733
“Statistical analysis clearly demonstrated that there is a close correlation between the expression of PGE(2) and VEGF.”
"The area with distinct VEGF expression closely matched the area where endothelial cells, vascular smooth muscle cells, and synovial lining cells proliferate”
——————————————————————————————————
-1, RLX, PGE2, and VEGF:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18562087
“Several factors participate in regulation of growth and development as well as angiogenesis of the uterus during pregnancy”
“IGF-I and RLX were identified as the most effective inducers of VEGF secretion and mRNA expression.”
“PGE(2) stimulated VEGF secretion and VEGF164 mRNA expression”
——————————————————————————————————
VEGF and DHT:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9794479
“DHT (10 nM) increased VEGF mRNA levels maximally after 2 h. Nuclear run-on transcription assays demonstrated a 2-fold increase in the VEGF transcription rate 2 h after the addition of DHT.”
“These data indicate that androgens increase VEGF transcription and secretion of biologically active VEGF from human prostatic stroma. Androgens, therefore, may indirectly enhance prostate growth via up-regulation of VEGF from the surrounding stroma.”

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21257919
“Real-time qRT-PCR analysis showed that DHT induced androgen receptor (AR), cyclin A, cyclin D1, and vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF) gene expression in a dose- and time-dependent manner”

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9790948
"Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) up-regulated VEGF mRNA at a level comparable to that observed upon exposure to growth factors.”

Atmospheric,

Very good finds! Sounds like were both heading down a lot of the same tracks… LOL very cool sir… Seems like there are a lot of common threads to VEGF! All roads lead to Rome!

Whats further is that even our close friend PGE-1 kicks out the VEGF!
PGE1 dramatically induced VEGF production by H-Mac…
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10965822

But cool to see that even DHT promotes VEGF!

The combination lock is starting to give way…

I get the feeling that SHH and VEGF are strongly correlated too.

Look at the connection to hemorrhoids and VEGF…. I hypothesize that there are strong
correlations between whats going on with forced PE and the pressure involved in the formation
of hemorrhoids.

I think what’s going on under the Tunica with PE and Chem PE is a scaled out\up version of whats going on with the formation of hemorrhoids.

Think like micro hemorrhoids….

Topical Sonic Hedgehog Gene Therapy Accelerates Wound Healing in
Diabetes by Enhancing Endothelial Progenitor Cell–Mediated Microvascular Remodeling

Our previous studies have shown that sonic hedgehog (Shh) induces neovascularization in
part by upregulation of multiple families of angiogenic growth factors, such as vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF) and angiopoietins.

Prostaglandins up-regulate vascular endothelial growth factor
Here we show that PGs up-regulate vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF) production by activated macrophages through their specific receptors.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10873632

One reason I keep thinking transdemral for the PGCL PGF2a and PGE-2, is that I suspect these may burn quite badly injected. I know Ron has tried PGE-2 injections with very painful results. Seems these other 2 are more closely related to PGE-2 then PGE-1. In any event I keep wondering about injections for these vs DMSO because of the potential side effects. Not only might these burn, but they may of course also at least PGCL cause the runs and painful craps for a good period of time unless you down the imodium AD before hand. I have had 3 vials of PGCL for forever and I hesitate to try injections for fear of the sides LOL… One guy I recall got the shits so bad and strained on the toilet for so long and hard he got an inflamed ass and reactivated his painful hemorrhoids. He didnt take the imodium AD.

Anyway I wonder, I thought I would try like a super super small amount injected and see if it burns for the PGCL but I still get scared of this stuff… Other stuff no prob, but that for some reason is a hum dinger on my mind…

I plan to try PGF2a still, in fact my next shipment that I purchase will be for 5 vials of PGF2a with 50mg per 10ml. I keep wondering DMSO or injection??? I do know I hate the idea of paying the price with the shits and long straining painful toilet trips…

If when I do try I will surely have downed some Imodium AD before hand.

Inuic…

Alin,

I think the patent holder does advocate more verapamil then what is recommended for PD. It may be significantly more if I recall…

Inuic.

Atmospheric

Let me know if you see anything about IGF-2 of interest?

Inuic

Originally Posted by inuic
Atmospheric

Let me know if you see anything about IGF-2 of interest?

Inuic

I’ll post everything I find here, for sure. I’ve actually got some more research I’ll post in a bit. A lot of my research thus far has definitely been similar to picking a combination lock. I personally believe in a “more-is-more” type of approach. Finding out that pretty much all of these compounds interact with each other backs this up, I’d like to think.

As far as IGF2, it wasn’t even on my radar. I was always under the impression that the best growth factor for the job would be -1 LR3. What makes you particularly excited about IGF2, if I may ask?

Speaking of growth factors, I’ve been trying to find out if there’s any relation worthwhile between IGF1 and HGH. I’ve heard in passing that it has the ability to potentiate IGF1’s effects on specific tissues, but I haven’t done much research on this.

Oh, and yeah, I get why you’d be hesitant to try the PGCL. If it works well enough, I’d do my best to put up with the pain and sides for sure, but I know not everyone is into it. Topical seems somewhat effective and worth a try.

Here’s some of my other findings. I wouldn’t really consider it “pushing the envelope”, but I do believe in a “more is more” type of approach. That’s basically due to the very many factors at work leading to growth. So, a big theme in my personal research is how these compounds effect each other. Here’s what else I’ve found:

——————————————————————
IGF and PGE 2:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8913883
“-1, is believed to be an important anabolic modulator of cartilage metabolism and its bioactivity and bioavailability is regulated, in part, by -1 binding protein 3 (IGFBP-3).
“Prostaglandin E2 (PGE2) stimulates -1 production by articular chondrocytes and we determined whether the eicosanoid could regulate IGFBP-3 and, as such, act as a modifier of -1 action at a different level.”
"Our results suggest that PGE2 modulates IGFBP-3 expression, protein synthesis, and secretion, and that such regulation may modify human chondrocyte responsiveness to -1 and influence cartilage metabolism.”
———————————————————————-
PGE2 and EGF:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2456289
“Growth stimulation by PGE2 and EGF activates cyclic AMP-dependent and -independent pathways in primary mouse epithelial cells.”
———————————————————————-
Relaxin and IGF:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9275049
“In conclusion, the data point to IGF-I, IGF-II, IGFBP-2, and IGFBP-3 as putative mediators of relaxin-induced uterine growth in the pig.”
——————————————————————
Relaxin and L-Arginine:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9622136
“This study suggests that RLX is an endogenous agent capable of regulating vascular tone by activation of the L-arginine-NO pathway in vascular smooth muscle cells.”
——————————————————————
Relaxin and VEGF:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11186125
“Relaxin showed an ability to stimulate new blood vessel formation, particularly at ischemic wound sites, and to induce both vascular endothelial growth factor and basic fibroblast growth factor specifically in cells, presumably including macrophages, collected from wound sites.”
“In conclusion, relaxin may be useful in the treatment of ischemic wounds by stimulating angiogenesis via the induction of vascular endothelial growth factor and basic fibroblast growth factor in wound macrophages.”
——————————————————————
Relaxin and DHT:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20154177
“Organ and primary cell cultures of gubernacula showed that 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT) upregulated the expression of Rxfp2” (Relaxin Family Peptide Receptors)
"Co-treatments of DHT with either INSL3 or relaxin resulted in an increase in cell proliferation”
“Our findings indicate that the RXFP2 signaling pathway plays an important role in mediating androgen action to stimulate gubernaculum development during inguinoscrotal testis descent.”
——————————————————————
HGH + IGF1:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9568461
“In rat osteoblasts, GH augments the effects of insulin-like growth factor (IGF) I on cell proliferation and differentiation.”
“IGF-I and -II exerted proliferative effects on both Human Osteoblast-like Cells and Human Marrow Stromal Cells. Co-stimulation with GH exhibited synergism in enhancing the proliferative response.
——————————————————————
HGH, IGF and MMP-2, MMP-9:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10679298
HGH and hIGF-I significantly modulated cathepsin, MMP-9 (latent form) and MMP-2 (active form) activities.”
HGH-modulated cathepsin and metalloproteinase activities were partly mediated by local hIGF-I secretion.”
HGH markedly stimulates the expression of proteinases in total rabbit bone cells via local hIGF-I production by stromal cells.”
——————————————————————
PGE2, HGH, IGF:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7517403
“6 h treatment with prostaglandin E2 (PGE2), growth hormone (HGH), IGF-I, or IGF-II revealed a complex pattern of regulatory effects on steady-state IGFBP transcript expression. PGE2 increased the transcript levels of IGFBP-3, IGFBP-4, and IGFBP-5, (approximately 22-, approximately 2- and approximately 4-fold respectively).”
——————————————————————

I spoke to Ron about some of this and he reminded me again of just how very painful PGE-2 is, and that although it might help it wasnt needed to grow. He went from like 6x5 to 9x7… In 2 years… But alas one thing he did that I really hesitate to every try is the finestermide or what ever the hell its called used for baldness prevention. It stops up DHT receptors while you take the stuff so you dont go bald or something to that effect. Then after like 6 months or something you kick the crap and load up on the DHT because now the receptors are up regulated and bam you are supposed to explode growth.

In the light of seeing how DHT can kick of VEGF production, which seems to be central to all themes where penis growth is ever envolved. The process might really be some kind of cornerstone. But I want to see where I can get first without going that route. I like peptides because at least my body in theory will know what these molecules are but with drugs you get side effects that are usually more significant then from more natural like substances. My body knows HGH much better then the baldness drug. Even if its not the best purity, its still more recognizeable to my liver and cells on the whole.

But again Atmospheric —- Good research…

Inuic iNFj

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