so, no news since a week ? what, did everybody die or move away ?
I think that everyone is waiting. Waitng for some marked results over a ten day or longer period. Plus half the guys are out trying to aquire the chemicals to do this. Everything takes a bit of time.
“You see, I don’t want to do good things, I want to do great things.” ~Alexander Joseph Luthor
I know Lewd Ferrigno personally.
8 isnt enough
A friend of mine asked me to post this:
Where has Iamru been?
From Imamru’s “Put up or shut up” post, I cut and pasted the one question he asked:
“Provide links. If these guys are all at love-scents ask them to come over and post a quick “Jones is legit” at Thunders. If they have gotten bigger tools due to you they will be glad to help. If they are members here name them. Once again, provide actual numbers. What does “most” mean? X number of guys out of how many? … judge for your selves, what possible reason could he have to become indignant and refuse such simple requests?
I then looked through the first few pages.
From page 8: “The first is whether it works, and I’m seeing more ‘evidence’ (admittedly, a little sketchy, as is the norm with PE), that it does. Dr. Reichter, Whitehall, androjelqer, Jones, and a few others, have all reported success. ” … “bigone0749: “saw a couple of Dr. Reicher’s messages on Yahoo … He did this for 8 months. He claims to have grown from 6 inches to 10 inches ” “Page through here to find lots of theory and research ( a link was provided to whitehalls progress” pg 1. -also the link was in several of Jones’s posts.
Looks like Iamaru hasn’t contributed a thing to this thread. One of the following must be true: He cannot read, he cannot follow links or he just did not care enough to actually read the the thread. He obviously just felt the need to exert some of his power. I don’t think anyone should take him seriously again.
What an embarrassment.
Banning someone becuase he has not been reading the thread-I wonder how long it will take for him to read this post now that his one interest is gone.
Cya at 8
Why do people feel it is necessary to argue all the time? Please try to get along with others. If Jones was done wrong, I am sure he wasn’t the first man in history to have something done to him.
If you feel it is needed to fight with someone, please dont do it here.
So what was the gain results can we get a fresh report from the guys.
Iamaru has been mostly away dealing with some non PE shit, it has nothing to do with this thread.
I haven't failed, I've found 10,000 ways that don't work. Thomas Edison (1847-1931)
Cya at 8
You can just throw me out of the mix here. My gains are screwed because I am a high yield gainer. I have gained an inch in 2 1/2 months. I haven’t been on 4ad but a month but come in at .5 in that month.
Take it or leave it but I have been off cycle for a couple of days and last night is when I finally hit 7.75. My girth fluctuates greatly so I am not going to post it.
I will measure Thursday before I go on my vacation to NYC. That will be two weeks on testosterone and about 3 weeks before with 4AD from Avant labs. I know I have grown some. I am back on my own light PE routine for about one week now.
First: Nearlythere was being an ass. Time and again around page 10 of the thread, he accuses Jones of not being scientific, demands medical studies to back up every statement made, shrilly screams that Jones is wrong, and then posts nothing to back up his own claims. By page 13 SS4 steps in and tries to get things calm again, and everyone thanks him. If you read back, Jones has been levelheaded for the last many pages. It’s Nearlythere whose been supplying all the screaming. Jones hasn’t been unreasonable since he finished responding to hobby, whose accusations were also presumptuously condemning. It’s not until page 22 that Jones goes rude again and calls Southpaw ‘uninformed and wrong’. Bad Jones! Naughty boy! On the whole, I think that Jones has been very mature, however. On reading the whole thread I’ve seen him get blatantly insulted, and he stays levelheaded more often than he cracks. He’d make his points better if he didn’t go defensive at all, but we’re all only human.
I have to like Rocco’s chime in here - he did the homework on the thread that nay-sayers weren’t willing to do and posted the answer. With a bit more spirit like that, we’ll have a much better discussion. I’m glad to see that nearlythere has toned down his responses and included more backing towards the end of the post, too. (Although he’s still being snippy and throwing in pejoratives like ‘kid’ into his responses to Jones.) Keep it levelheaded guys. I know it’s a struggle.
I’m quite disappointed at Iamaru for his banning of Jones. I’m going to have to agree with Northstar’s take on this almost 100%. Given that Jones WAS beset from all sides, it would be impossible to have answered all the questions put to him in full - unless he wanted to make a 4 hour a day job of Responding to Thunder’s Place. I don’t blame him for making his answers shorter at the end. I’d be getting sick of running around in circles too, in his place. It’s not a case of “one set of rules for Jones different from all the rest” as penissmith suggested. It looks to me like Jones was trying, and it was just too much for him. As girth says, as moderator, you have to make tough decisions. I think you made the wrong one, this time, however, Iamaru.
Second: It’s spelled ‘prove’. Not ‘proove’. I know you don’t care about spelling Jones, or grammar much, but messing this up will rile up all sort of intellectual prejudices against you. It’s a prejudice, but it’s one that you’re going to encounter for the rest of your life. It’s also one that you can avoid. Take the time to learn how not to set this one off.
Now my own thoughts on the issue.
Arguing about what this pro-hormone converts to in the body is interesting, and necessary for final understanding what’s going on. It has safety ramifications. However, the continuing debates over what things convert to and whether or not they will have any effect on the penis neglects the fact that both sides of that equation are carrying huge unknowns right now. There is no consensus over exactly what causes penile growth in the endocrinological community. The exact action of this pro-hormone and its related compounds (which will certainly taint the mixture somewhat) is also not known.
This is biology we’re dealing with here. It’s the most abstract of the core sciences. (Physics, Chemistry, Biology.) Cut and dry answers regarding what’s actually going on are a bit much to ask for. When your experiment deals with a ball, an inclined plane, and a stopwatch, THEN you can get cut and dry answers. When your experiment deals with macromolecular interactions, multiple organic systems that make even the complexity of a cell look paltry, and the psychology of people making the measurements rather than a single scientist… it’s time to break out the statistics. Statistical answers are as good as it’s going to get short of millions of dollars and decades of study, and what that will give you will be a better defined statistical answer.
So, in the end, the question is this: What happens when I rub 4AD gel on my dick?
Jones suggests that said dick will be larger at the end of a month than it was at the start. This is what we hope for. Do our observations back up this result? What do the side effects seem to be?
To me, the most promising case would be that the 4AD converts to some other novel compound in the body. Most drugs aren’t naturally occurring chemicals in the body - they resemble naturally occurring chemicals. The difference causes them to have a unique effect. Pinning the success of 4AD on whether or not it actually converts to T or DHT is misguided. It could convert to something nearly like DHT that is far more effective at stimulating penile growth. The difference could be nothing more than a change in isomerism. Biology is screwy enough that often that’s all it takes.
Second: Studies on microphallic patients regarding the efficacy of androgen exposure don’t prove the efficacy of androgens for normal adult males. Microphallic patients respond to general body androgen replacement, so the topical results aren’t proving anything new here. Studies that I’d heard of so far were generally interpreted to mean that androgen reception leading to growth in the penis shut down at the end of puberty and thus microphallic people could be treated by just about any form of androgen replacement. This would work because not having been through a full fledged or proper puberty, their receptors had never shut down. If topical androgens can lead to growth in normal adults, then it suggests that this model is incorrect or that something peculiar to the androgens tested is side-stepping the normal mechanisms of growth. (Yes, I do see the post that suggests that down-regulation of receptors is not the correct model.)
Hopping back to the former point, imagine it is the case that DHT is the agent of phallic growth during puberty, and that those receptors that translate DHT presence to growth do close down at the end of puberty. What if 4AD converts not to DHT but to a molecule that can trigger the receptor that has been closed off to DHT? No, that’s not my theory for what’s happening. All I’m trying to point out is that this is a whole freaking human body we’re discussing here. The possibilities for what actually happens are complicated to say the very least.
Third: On the DHT vs. early death thing. The evidence is that death is a necessary partner with sex for sex, from an evolutionary standpoint, to function properly. I recommend the most excellent (and readable) book, “Sex: A Natural History”. It makes sense that a sex hormone would also trigger mortality.
Yeah, it’s a long and rambling response. It’s been 47 pages getting here and I feel entitled. Bear with me.
Oh, and chalk me up for the guinea pigs. I’ll try 1 bottle of the stuff per the directions here and report my results back. I’ve always been a slow gainer, so anything that helps is welcome. Plus, I like guinea pigs. They’re soft, and warm, and they tremble in constant mortal terror of you, which is something that every mad scientist needs.
A question for you deSol. What product are you going to purchase??
I’m going with the 4A-D stuff from 1Fast400. Trying to stick with Jones’ recommended routine to the greatest degree feasible. I expect I’ll step off the routine around labor day when one of my harem girls comes to visit. Other than that, it seems like an easy enough routine to follow.
I think Jones would be happy with your choice. I think his main purpose here was to sell product using the links he posted on page 1.
I DOUBT that he was working with Mike, the owner of 1fast400.com….and if he was, Mike probably had nothing to do with it. I dont know him personally, but he is one of the best businessmen that I have known to date. He gets everything shipped to everyone in 3-4 days top. When I e-mailed him about using Super One+ (1-test combined with 4-AD), he expressed concern because I am not 21 yet. And when I ordered in bulk and he forgot something in the package, he immediately sent the product and I got it in 2 days….no questions asked. I have not heard a single bad thing about him or his business….I would HIGHLY recommend buying from him. He also has the cheapest prices that I know of. And no, I dont work for him, but if I lived in NC, I would love to be associated with him some how.
I am currently on a cycle of Super One+ (again, 1-test with 4-AD) and am on week 2 of the cycle. Nothing special to post about…doubt it will help at all, maybe a little….
Cya at 8
Pinning the success of 4AD on whether or not it actually converts to T or DHT is misguided. It could convert to something nearly like DHT that is far more effective at stimulating penile growth. The difference could be nothing more than a change in isomerism. Biology is screwy enough that often that's all it takes.
This is not possible. Testosterone and 4AD differ only at Carbon atom number 3, otherwise they are identical in structure. However, the differences at carbon #3 are actually quite dramatic. The geometric shape of the molecule at this location changes significantly when you go from testosterone to 4AD. It is quite likely that this difference is the major reason why 4AD does not bind to aromatase, and does not convert to estrogen.
The second statement to consider is that 4AD does not convert to DHT. This means that 4AD does not interact with the enzyme 5-alpha reductase, which hydrogenates the double bond on testosterone between carbons 4 and 5. The reason for this lack of interaction is the same as just described for aromatase, that is, the shape of 4AD is too dissimilar to testosterone for it to bind to the enzyme.
Only molecules that are very similar in structure to testosterone will bind to the AR and activate it in order to promote protein synthesis at the nuclear level. For example, the structural differences between testosterone and progesterone are very small, yet the AR does not bind progesterone. Masteron and Mesterolone are similar to testosterone, yet they bind only weakly to the AR, and Mesterolone probably blocks the receptor instead of activating it. It is a logical conclusion that 4AD is too dissimilar in structure to testosterone in order for it to bind and activate the AR to promote protein synthesis. Any effects that are observed are likely the result of actions other than binding (and activating) the AR.
The increase in testosterone in the body is short-lived (60-90 minutes), and probably not very effective at stimulating protein synthesis. The conversion rate for 4ad is only about 15% and this rate decreases with a higher application amount due to the dependency of 4ad to 3b-HSD for conversion and this enzyme being “swamped” with the PH.
So in conclusion, 4ad will not be very successful at delivering DHT to the androgen receptors BUT……. It is successful at lowering the amount of 3b-HSD. How is this important you might ask? Because 3b-HSD is responsible for breaking down DHT into a weaker metabolite. It essentially blocks 3b-HSD from breaking down DHT and thus raising DHT levels.
Will that be enough to grow your penis?…I would think not. But it makes for an interesting conversation.
From the single semester of organic chemistry that I’ve taken, I can’t lodge a well researched argument in this regard. What I do know is that with biological molecules, a tiny change in something as trivial as chirality or other isomerisms can produce giant differences in how the body deals with them. To say that it actually has an entire atom different in the molecule, at my level of ignorance, opens up most all the possibilities. This is a change about on the order of the difference between adrenaline, speed, and caffeine. They are all very similar, differing by a single carbon and what hangs off of it.
It would be interesting if it did act primarily to prevent breakdown of DHT. Taken in combination with the assumption that the rate of absorption is slow, this might be a sufficient active principle. Now you’d have the DHT reduction being blocked not for 60-90 minutes, but until the 4AD finishes absorbing through the skin. (…and up to 90 minutes after that.)
Just poking at thoughts inspired by your post, Cya. Let me know which bits I’m misreading.
P.S. Could you link me to where you’re getting the molecular diagrams of T & 4AD from? I’d like to understand this one better m’self.