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Quote
Originally posted by Jones8315
I never said I was using that product. I dissolved 4AD powder in alcohol, then added IPM. It is widely considered to be a very effective trans-dermal delivery system.

alcohol and IPM are widely considered to be insanely outdated as a transdermal carrier. 5 years ago maybe that was considered effective…today it’s crap.

Oh yeah, and neither of those chemicals will carry a androgen past the dermis. So back in the day when that was used, it would only put about 10% of your active into the bloodstream and none past that into localized tissue…

AGAIN MAN! Where’s your proof!

Quote
Originally posted by Jones8315
Testosterone synthesis is suppressed, the extent is not discussed. The fact that it is temporarily suppressed, is stated. If trans-dermal androgens is not effective, why has this published medical study explicitly stated that it is effective? Yes, I know they are younger. It still proves the efficacy of a topical trans-dermal method.

Transdermal dihydrotestosterone therapy and its effects on patients with microphallus.

Choi SK, Han SW, Kim DH, de Lignieres B.

Department of Urology, Yonsei University College of Medicine, Seoul, Korea.

To investigate the efficacy of transdermal dihydrotestosterone therapy on 22 patients with microphallus, we applied dihydrotestosterone gel for 8 weeks to the external genitalia at daily doses of 12.5 mg. and 25 mg. for ages less than and older than 10 years, respectively. All patients were evaluated for penile and prostatic growth, pituitary-gonadal axis function, serum sex hormone binding globulin, lipid metabolism, hepatotoxicity, bone age and height velocity. All patients demonstrated growth of the penis during treatment. The mean increase rate (153%) in the first 4 weeks of treatment was higher than that (118%) of the second 4 weeks. Of importance is that responses were noted in 4 patients who had failed testosterone therapy for microphallus. The pituitary-gonadal axis was transiently suppressed during treatment, and serum sex hormone binding globulin and lipid metabolism were transiently affected during treatment. Serum alkaline phosphatase increased, mainly due to change of bone isoenzyme but bone ages and mean height velocity were not significantly affected. In conclusion, transdermal dihydrotestosterone therapy is an effective and relatively safe modality in the treatment of microphallus.

You really think they were just using alcohol and IPM as the carrier???

Or do you think MAYBE they utilized a delivery system that would actually work?

Take a wild guess on this one.

Since they carrier isn’t specifically stated this study is pretty much useless. Show me a study that used your ancient method of transdermal delivery and shows an androgen being delivered to local tissue.

You’re not going to find one bro. It won’t work.

Quote
Originally posted by Jones8315
evidence of local action:
“When flank organs of a castrated hamster are treated topically with testosterone, the flank organ becomes larger and darker”

1. Growth suppression of hamster flank organs by topical application of catechins, alizarin, curcumin, and myristoleic acid
Publication: Archives of Dermatological Research
Authors: S. Liao, Jerry Lin, M. T. Dang, et al.
Publisher: Springer-Verlag Heidelberg
Recency: Volume 293, Number 4/April 24, 2001
Relevancy: 2.8%

That’s great. Too bad you didn’t use any myristoleic acid huh?

Are you really this dense?

You’re posting up studies that have nothing to do with the procedure you’re currently running. Why?

Quote
Originally posted by Jones8315
I dont heat the skin, I heat the 4AD.

And this does what besides incease the solubility of the solution?

Quote
Originally posted by Jones8315
I never said I was using that product. I dissolved 4AD powder in alcohol, then added IPM. It is widely considered to be a very effective trans-dermal delivery system.

So you know enough to recommend the product (as you cleary did on page 1 of this thread) but not enough to read the label of ingredients to come up with even a half-ass transdermal carrier.

You’re the man bro.

Anyway…

This is long and boring (for me) and becoming a waste of time.

Best of luck in the future, I would start doing a lot more research if I was you, I think you’re going to screw yourself up bad bro.

Take care,

nearlythere

Jones,

Are you any closer to posting the ScienceDirect URL’s?


Thunder's Place: increasing penis size one dick at a time.

“alcohol and IPM are widely considered to be insanely outdated as a transdermal carrier. 5 years ago maybe that was considered effective…today it’s crap.

Oh yeah, and neither of those chemicals will carry a androgen past the dermis. So back in the day when that was used, it would only put about 10% of your active into the bloodstream and none past that into localized tissue…

AGAIN MAN! Where’s your proof!”

Read the androgel prescribing information. It states the ingredients are alcohol and IPM. Also, Androgel does not qualify as outdated. Much more then 10% gets through the skin. If you type in Androgel prescribing information in yahoo, the direct link will come up.


Mr jones and me..... Gonna be big stars

“So you know enough to recommend the product (as you cleary did on page 1 of this thread) but not enough to read the label of ingredients to come up with even a half-ass transdermal carrier.”

I recommended it because it contains Isopropyl alcohol, propylene glycol, octyl salicylate, d-limonene, linoleic acid, oleic acid. A similar formulation. ISO alcohol plus penetration enhancers.


Mr jones and me..... Gonna be big stars

Quote
Originally posted by Jones8315
Read the androgel prescribing information. It states the ingredients are alcohol and IPM. Also, Androgel does not qualify as outdated. Much more then 10% gets through the skin. If you type in Androgel prescribing information in yahoo, the direct link will come up.

A) Thanks, I already posted the direct link to the PDF up above…

B) AndroGel pushes more than 10% active though huh? PROVE IT!!!!

AndroGel is crap! Here’s a study showing AndroGel getting beat like a $2 whore in a head to head transdermal study.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/…9&dopt=Abstract

Dude…come on…at least try a little…

Quote
Originally posted by Jones8315
“So you know enough to recommend the product (as you cleary did on page 1 of this thread) but not enough to read the label of ingredients to come up with even a half-ass transdermal carrier.”

I recommended it because it contains Isopropyl alcohol, propylene glycol, octyl salicylate, d-limonene, linoleic acid, oleic acid. A similar formulation. ISO alcohol plus penetration enhancers.

Nice…maybe I can copy and paste ingredients too!

your isn’t even remotely close to that formula. And you don’t know the percentage points for each active so good luck in backward engineering it.

“4AD converts to 3-alpha!??!!?

NO it doesn’t! That’s ridiculous! Oh, and 3-alpha is a DHT precuror not a derivative.

Wrong bro. Post up proof on this one, you’re way off.”

The only difference between 3alpha and 4AD is a double bond. Why is that rediculous?

“3alpha is a DHT precuror not a derivative”. Test goes to DHT, which goes to androstanediols(3alpha/beta). 3HSD facilitates this.

Synthesis of Testosterone and 5-Androstanediols during Nutritionally Stimulated Gonadal Growth inLytechinus variegatusLamarck (Echinodermata:Echinoidea), Pages 197-206
Kristina M. Wasson, Gene A. Hines and Stephen A. Watts


Mr jones and me..... Gonna be big stars

Quote
Originally posted by Jones8315
The only difference between 3alpha and 4AD is a double bond. Why is that rediculous?

Please tell me that you understand when you change the molecular composition of a structure that it will inherintly change the nature of that compound..right?

Yes there is a difference between 4AD and 3-alpha. Yes the are vastly different.

One does not precursor the other.

Quote
Originally posted by Jones8315
This fact is document in the attachment.

I’m not even going to try and guess what you’re trying to communicate with this statement.

Are you attempting to attach something?

“C(max) estimates for total testosterone, dihydrotestosterone and free testosterone were greater (30, 19 and 38%, respectively) following the application of Testim trade mark compared to AndroGel((R)). “

Your study states that this ‘testim’ is ~30% more effective then androgel. I dont believe that has any relevance. It simply proves again that androgel is effective.


Mr jones and me..... Gonna be big stars

Gentlemen,

This is getting out of hand here. Take some chill pills please.

Jones, I have followed this with some interest, most of, if not all of your studies incorportate individuals with microphallus. Now, do you have any studies showing the results in individuals with normal sized penises. If so, please post them.


sunny A day without sunshine is like a day without laughter :sun:

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