Thunder's Place

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Gain .5 inch/month with no excersizes

Hey Cya,

So first study you posted supports the notion that replacement test actually reduces prostate enlargement (owing to reduced estrogen levels).


The strange thing is that growth of both resonate from the same nuro pathway during puberty and both respond the same way after as far as maintaining size with DHT after puberty.

Well, if the theory doesn’t match the facts, change the facts.



Normally testosterone and estrogen is ‘balanced’ in the body. During the wonder years the former influences penile growth, the latter the prostate. Replacement test re-creates the conditions necessary for penile growth, but without the estrogen.

Bigger dicks, smaller prostates.

(OK, that was weak…)

SS4, I take it your position is that 4-AD has such a small capacity to be converted to test, that (for the purpose of this discussion), it’s really snake oil.

Poor substitute for test, little to no DHT conversion, your dick will not get bigger…your hair will not fall out.

How do you feel about Nearly’s assertion that it will result in a shutdown of test?

Thanks so much guys, for the feedback.

Keep doin' what your doin' ...

And you'll keep getting what ya got.

I was looking at the fact that this is either possible, if the prostate grows with a high level of dht because it doesnt continue to grow with low levels simular to the penis and the E only begins gender reassignment or that this isnt possible because neither the prostate nor the penis can grow with dht after puberty. The E shows the fact that the receptors are open.

This is just a pure out and out guess. It just seems weird to me. Still looking for a study that confirms that dht will grow the prostate after puberty.

This is what we have so far:

1. The androgen responsible for growth is dht during puberty.

2. The receptors are indeed active.

The missing part is the enzymes and their levels in puberty and post puberty. There are two types of 5 AR in the human body. One is found in the liver and is blocked by Finasteride and a few others and the other is found locally in a few other places which includes the CC. This may show why topical T will grow the penis.

There are even more enzymes in the penis that may convert DHT to a usable androgen set for growth in the penis. If the levels of this enzyme drop after puberty then this would explain the fact of no post pubertal growth with normal levels of DHT.

Once again, this is a wild guess and not to be taken as fact in any way shape or form. I was somewhat asked to add in my 2 cents here, so I did that to the best of my ability. One thing I know for sure. You will not find the answer we are looking for in a book.

when are there going to be some before and after proof pictures from this experiment?


Originally posted by Jones8315
[BThere seem to be many people claiming topical androgens cant have a local effect. Many people have heard that the drug diffuses into the blood stream and is circulated. However, I believe there is proof that that is false. The androgel prescribing information says explicitly not to apply it to your balls. Why? I thought it just diffuses through those little cappilaries and veins? Oh, you mean that the problem is that it is too close to your testes. But, I thought it didn’t matter where you applied it, because basal levels raise to the same level no matter where you apply the gel. Hmmm, it looks like when you apply it right to the scrotum, something more suppressive happens than if you apply to your shoulders and let the androgens eventually get there! This shows that androgens have local topical activity. [/B]

Or it might just irritate the crap out of them.

Here’s a link to the AndroGel prescribing information PDF for doctors. It specifically states that AndroGel delivers Testosterone SYSTEMICALLY!

Oh yeah, not that it matters as your not using AndroGel now are you? You’re using the 4-Aderm from Avant Labs so what’s the point in bringing up AndroGel anyway? Please keep this relevant and only speak to what you’re familar with.


This whole deal has gotten a little off of topic. So let’s refine it down and take it point by point.

Let’s start with delivering the hormone to local tissue vs delivering the active systemically.

Jones - You’ve stated that you’re using 4-Aderm by Avant Labs. Please present proof that this specific product that you’re using delivers ANY prohormone to your penis tissue.

I’ll even let you know how I’m going to defend my argument that there is no way you’re seeing any local delivery. I’ll simply post up the multiple studies and documented abstracts that Avant Labs President and creator of 4-Aderm has posted on the Avant Labs website that cleary show why the carrier gel of 4-Aderm CANNOT deliver hormone past the dermis and capillary system.

Now, balls in your court. Please provide “proof” (i.e., not that crap you had above) that while using your stated 4-Aderm product ANY hormone was delivered locally to penise tissue.

Looking forward to your reply. After we’re done with this point we can move on.

Originally posted by Jones8315
“That’s the risk. It is NOT less of a risk simply becuase you use less of the product. “

Then why will any bodybuilder tell you that if you use 900mg of 4AD you will experience fewer side effects then if you use 50mg?

It is common sense.

Yes, SIDE EFFECTS (acne, prostate enlargement, emotional responses, etc…) do indeed increase as dosage increases.

Side effects are not suppression though.

They are NOT comparable as Apples to Apples.

Once again you’re not understanding the basics of human physiology and you’re making these inaccurate jumps in logic.

Originally posted by Jones8315

This is incorect. I will proove it shortly.

Please provide your proof in the form of a published medical study.


Again, 4AD converts to 3alpha(a DHT derivative) in the penis. Androstanediol(3alpha), may be active. Or 3HSD may change it to DHT. I speculate that the slow diffusion through the skin causes the appearance of elevated androgens in the penis.

I never said I was using that product. I dissolved 4AD powder in alcohol, then added IPM. It is widely considered to be a very effective trans-dermal delivery system.

nearlythere: “Or it might just irritate the crap out of them.” I contend that my explanation is much more plausible. In fact, it is widely thought that when Androgel is directly applied to the scrotum that it has an enhanced suppressive effect.

Testosterone synthesis is suppressed, the extent is not discussed. The fact that it is temporarily suppressed, is stated. If trans-dermal androgens is not effective, why has this published medical study explicitly stated that it is effective? Yes, I know they are younger. It still proves the efficacy of a topical trans-dermal method.

Transdermal dihydrotestosterone therapy and its effects on patients with microphallus.

Choi SK, Han SW, Kim DH, de Lignieres B.

Department of Urology, Yonsei University College of Medicine, Seoul, Korea.

To investigate the efficacy of transdermal dihydrotestosterone therapy on 22 patients with microphallus, we applied dihydrotestosterone gel for 8 weeks to the external genitalia at daily doses of 12.5 mg. and 25 mg. for ages less than and older than 10 years, respectively. All patients were evaluated for penile and prostatic growth, pituitary-gonadal axis function, serum sex hormone binding globulin, lipid metabolism, hepatotoxicity, bone age and height velocity. All patients demonstrated growth of the penis during treatment. The mean increase rate (153%) in the first 4 weeks of treatment was higher than that (118%) of the second 4 weeks. Of importance is that responses were noted in 4 patients who had failed testosterone therapy for microphallus. The pituitary-gonadal axis was transiently suppressed during treatment, and serum sex hormone binding globulin and lipid metabolism were transiently affected during treatment. Serum alkaline phosphatase increased, mainly due to change of bone isoenzyme but bone ages and mean height velocity were not significantly affected. In conclusion, transdermal dihydrotestosterone therapy is an effective and relatively safe modality in the treatment of microphallus.

Mr jones and me..... Gonna be big stars

evidence of local action:
“When flank organs of a castrated hamster are treated topically with testosterone, the flank organ becomes larger and darker”

1. Growth suppression of hamster flank organs by topical application of catechins, alizarin, curcumin, and myristoleic acid
Publication: Archives of Dermatological Research
Authors: S. Liao, Jerry Lin, M. T. Dang, et al.
Publisher: Springer-Verlag Heidelberg
Recency: Volume 293, Number 4/April 24, 2001
Relevancy: 2.8%

Mr jones and me..... Gonna be big stars

Yes, I believe heat may be important.

Mr jones and me..... Gonna be big stars

Heating the skin after the topical application of a drug will increase drug absorption into the vascular network, enhancing the systemic delivery but decreasing the local delivery as the drug molecules are carried away from the local delivery site.1.

I would say not to use heat after the application.

“Avant Labs President and creator of 4-Aderm has posted on the Avant Labs website that cleary show why the carrier gel of 4-Aderm CANNOT deliver hormone past the dermis and capillary system.”

Have you considered that perhaps this is irrelevent?
The antegumentary system stores and synthesizes androgens.

Mr jones and me..... Gonna be big stars

I dont heat the skin, I heat the 4AD.

Mr jones and me..... Gonna be big stars

Originally posted by Jones8315
Again, 4AD converts to 3alpha(a DHT derivative) in the penis. Androstanediol(3alpha), may be active. Or 3HSD may change it to DHT. I speculate that the slow diffusion through the skin causes the appearance of elevated androgens in the penis.

4AD converts to 3-alpha!??!!?

NO it doesn’t! That’s ridiculous! Oh, and 3-alpha is a DHT precuror not a derivative.

Wrong bro. Post up proof on this one, you’re way off.


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