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Dr. Adams Chem PE Again

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Originally Posted by marinera

May I ask if you are a physician Stagestop?

I think Stage has a lot of knowledge and certainly is more informed than any doctor I’ve had discussions with. Stage you are fantastic man and dedicated to us men. Thanks buddy.

Originally Posted by alin
Hi again Stage, thank you for your time and effort providing an in detail explanation.

Regarding the collagen issue I will post here a phrase from the chemical PE patent :

”The inventor hypothesizes that an important reason why penis growth slows and stops after several months in all patients he has observed who have enlarged their penises is because the rate of new collagen formed is faster than the rate that it is being removed and that this hypertrophy of the structural collagen fibers which the inventor has observed in all patients whose growth has slowed, must reduce the effectiveness of any further biomechanical stimulation.”

Basing on the above statement, one could think that collagen is produced enough in response to biomechanical stimulation without needing to enhance its production, even more the patent inventor states that it is produced much more and degraded less than what’s needed to sustain continuous growth, so one would actually need to optimize the balance between collagen production and collagen degrading, shifting more towards elements that reduce collagen production or increase its degradation.

Hi, Alin,

The patent inventor is stating what this board has already discovered, sort of, and that is that early gains are much more common than ongoing growth. This board is full of stories to that effect. What he is implying, is that to continue growth, some other form of therapy is needed to tissue remodeling to continue. As to the truth of that as a theory, I believe that it is somewhat true, however, those that have gained more than 1 inch would seem to the be exception to his theory. At the moment, I can’t quantify how many want to grow more than 1” that succeed, and how many fail (with my arbitrary selection of 1” to represent the difference between early gains, versus long term gains). Defining why someone fails is most difficult on this board as we are limited to what the person feels like posting.

As to ” the rate of new collagen formed is faster than the rate that it is being removed and that this hypertrophy of the structural collagen fibers which the inventor has observed in all patients whose growth has slowed, must reduce the effectiveness of any further bio-mechanical stimulation.” and your suggestion that collagen production be reduced, that won’t work. Collagen production is systemic. Should you stop consuming Vitamin C, in about a year or so, you will die a gruesome death from Scurvy. If you significantly reduce Vitamin C production, you will be subject to a number of vascular problems, with the most serious being arterial rupture. So, reducing collagen is not a good idea as your body has to make it.

As to the theory that after some degree of growth, that continuing tension over time becomes ineffective, due to the strengthening of the connective tissue, it makes sense to me to a degree, but does not seem to be an absolute. And of course, this is his proposed validation for using the Chem PE protocols. The basics of his protocol, differs only from what I guess would be called “Standard PE” is that on the chemical side, he is seeking a way to weaken the connective tissue so that “bio-mechanical stimulation” (stretching, mostly) will again become effective. I agree with the theory. The problem them becomes, how does one accomplish that goal.

As to your question about “bio-mechanical stimulation” being the method of creating new collagen, it is not that easy. It certainly will send out signals that collagen needs to be replaced, but the construction of collagen still requires protein, and vitamin C. I realize that this is somewhat of a simplistic response, but it works for our purposes.

With growth being achieved by first causing rupture to the collagen strands due to tension being applied, followed by the body replacing the collagen and strengthening the connective tissue, both the tear down, and rebuilding are necessary. The reason that I mentioned supplementing with Vitamin C as being integral, but to an undefined percentage of people, is my experience with soft tissue injuries that have not healed on their own. In those cases, Vitamin C was the factor that enabled healing. I am guessing that the members of the board are reasonably healthy, and reasonably nourished, however, as the reach of the board is rather wide spread, then perhaps some would benefit from that thought. Certainly growth cannot happen, if the rebuilding of the collagen cannot be accomplished.

In your next post, you mention Relaxin. Certainly if we could get a very good transdermal Relaxin, that would seem to have a great deal of potential. The trick is to get it into the connective tissue, and not merely have the blood take the hormone away before it hits the targeted tissue. Relaxin is critical to child birth. With the help of Relaxin, a vagina that is small enough to be tight around a penis, is then capable of expelling a new born. The down side is that a vagina has a different construction than the penis. The penis is intended to be rigid, and overcome the hydraulic pressure of blood pressure in a cylinder, and the vagina is intended to expand as necessary.

In this effort, the hurdles are the relative rarity of human Relaxin and the difficulty in getting a transdermal substance past the skin, and into the connective tissue. DMSO is probably the greatest carrier around that is available to the masses, yet, it still is mostly dispersed in the blood. This is why you can taste it soon after application. DMSO does penetrate quite far into the body, but determining where it goes, and for how long, is a matter of trial and error.

Verapamil would be a nice tissue degrader (which after causing degradation of the connective tissue, the tissue would be replaced, with a bit extra) but one has the same issue. It has been shown to be somewhat effective in Peyronies, but it is working on the skin mostly in that situation. Getting it past the skin and into the connective tissue is again the challenge.

Well, I guess that this has gone far enough in regards to chemistry. Hope it helps.

it is confusing

Originally Posted by capernicus1
I think this is key information I’m just not exactly sure how to interpret it yet.
Is this higher rate of collagen production normal or a product of the chem part of the program ?
You would think persistant overtraining would ultimately increase degradation ?

Hi Capernicus1.

This part of the tread started with my observation in regards to others with soft tissue injuries who responded very quickly to Vitamin C supplementation. PE is basically the tearing down of connective tissue followed by its repair and replacement. The “tension over time” is the application of force to the penis in an effort to tear part of the connective tissue (tunica). The body responds by adding more collagen to repair the tunica. Collagen cannot be made without sufficient amounts of Vitamin C available. So, the question on collagen is “how many people who use this board are deficient in Vitamin C, and would benefit from supplementation?” The answer to the question is an unknown. By looking at how many people are on the board, it would seem quite likely that some may benefit. On the other hand, from what one sees about who is on the board, they seem younger and most likely, healthier than average. So, again, another unknown as to the PE process. I hope that it is a thought for beginners to ponder.

Then we evolved into a part of how Chemical PE works. A number of us on the board are trying to reverse engineer Dr.Adams patent for PE, and having some, but not a lot of success. The goal is to selectively degrade the tunica so that the continued application of tension will allow growth to happen. Unfortunately, it is quite difficult on a board like this to accomplish good science.

As to your question about persistent over training would ultimately increase degradation, well, that would be the case in building muscle, but perhaps not. I arbitrarily picked 1” of growth as my yardstick in looking at success. I found a lot more guys who achieved one inch, as opposed to very, very few who achieved 3 inches of growth. This tends to bring us back to the chemical field where the goal is to find substances that will either degrade or relax the tunica so that growth can continue.

What I keep pondering is that chemistry is chemistry. What works for one, should work for all, yet that has not proven to be the case. I am curious as to why this is the case, and what can be done about it.

Hope that helps.

Originally Posted by stagestop
As to ” the rate of new collagen formed is faster than the rate that it is being removed and that this hypertrophy of the structural collagen fibers which the inventor has observed in all patients whose growth has slowed, must reduce the effectiveness of any further bio-mechanical stimulation.” and your suggestion that collagen production be reduced, that won’t work. Collagen production is systemic. Should you stop consuming Vitamin C, in about a year or so, you will die a gruesome death from Scurvy. If you significantly reduce Vitamin C production, you will be subject to a number of vascular problems, with the most serious being arterial rupture. So, reducing collagen is not a good idea as your body has to make it.

Hi there

In the earlier post I mentioned

” so one would actually need to optimize the balance between collagen production and collagen degrading, shifting more towards elements that reduce collagen production or increase its degradation. “,

so I’m not saying reduction of collagen production is mandatory , one could easily increase its degradation. Also each individual has its particular physiology(making an analogy to scarring -some individuals produce excess collagen (keloid scars) others less than needed (atrophic scars) ), so I don’t think in this case one size fits all. Each one should consider taking the approach that is best suited for himself.

Regarding the relaxin post: I wrote it to take into consideration the fact the the fibrocartilage tissue mentioned in that study increased in length and weight , concomitantly with relaxin reducing collagen content, meaning one could think that fibrous tissues can be lengthened without enhancing collagen production.


Starting stats: 6.4" / 5.6" Current Stats: 7.4" / 5.8" Short term goal: 7" / 6" Long term goal: 8" / 6.5"

I need to understand all of this

Reading through it seems a key factor in achieving gains is weakening connective tissue to enable growth. A question: what about cortisone? It works locally and is well known to weaken connective tissue substantially (up to 90% in ligaments). Ha anyone tried cortisone whether topically or injected, in PE?

I know it’s has been a while since I’ve posted on this thread. I realized that the topical solution that was given to me from Dr. Adams was creating such a nasty reaction that I figured out that the average person wouldn’t be able to follow his instructions of applying it every 3 hours.

Anyways, I’m back to the chemical PE again with the guidance of different mentor. However, to anyone who wishes to start this PLEASE minimize the penile fibrosis ASAP. I’ve listed some tips which are unconfirmed be it wouldn’t hurt to be safe then sorry.

1. If you develop zits, pimples etc on your shaft and you happen to pop them, discontinue from PE until skin is fully healed.
2. If you are pumping, do not pump if skin is fully healed from the zits and pimples
3. Once you inject, really pay attention to the puncture area closely, if puncture not fully healed then this will cause fibrosis (in my opinion)

The only reason why I’m saying this is because I noticed little bumps like fat deposits within my shaft underneath the popped pimples or puncture area. So hopefully this is useful for anyone else.


Current: BPEL - [6].1.2.3.4.5.6.(*7*).8.9.10[7].1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.9.10[8].1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.9.10[9]

Current: MSEG - [4].1.2.3.4.5.6.7.(*8*).9.10[5].1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.9.10[6].1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.9.10[7]

Goal: 9x6

What were your gains from all of this?

Originally Posted by Jimmybob55
What were your gains from all of this?

He hasn’t signed in since 2009, I doubt you’ll be getting a reply to this. A word of advice, don’t chase the unicorn, it’s a fools errand. Stick to manual pe and dedicate time to a routine and your dick will grow

I was referring to Paradigm who seems to be following the same routine. Hey I know it doesn’t work but I ask anyway.

Has there been any new developments on this issue from anyone? An update would be most welcome, thanks.

Wow,

I almost forgot about this thread. Just an update from my visit to Dr. Adams years ago. He has moved his office within Toronto.

What Has Happened
- Topical Cream that needed to be applied every 3 hours caused serious reactions on my shaft (I have pin pointed that it was the fabric from my boxers but still, I discontinued)
- My titration of the PGE-1 was constantly going up in dosage making it very expensive to keep up with the treatment.
- Dr. Adams has advise that if I discontinued with the topical cream, that using PGE-1 (Tri-Mix), seeing gains would be minimal
- I attempted to continue with the injections for a bit but then I noticed that I was not responding to the Tri-Mix so I forecast that my injections from Dr. Adams would become expensive.
- Dr. Adams also advise me that since I’ve done some PEing in the past, it may have limited my gains with this type of treatment but it was my choice if I wished to continue which I did for a short period.

Gains?
- I’ve gained for sure but with my lousy memory, I’m guessing 0.50 in BPFSL and not much in the girth department. My girlfriend did felt a difference as confirmation that it was working at the time, but it was most likely all newbie gains.

Routine at the time
- Every 3 hours, manual stretch for 1 - 3 minutes (Lots of washroom trips)
- Every 3 hours, apply the topical cream (Verapamil mixture) on the top of the shaft only
- Evening do 7 minutes of Manual Stretching
- Injection before bed about 4 times per 7 day cycle (Only when my titration gives me 2 hours of solid erection)

Cost
- I think it was $80 - $100 of 300 ML of the PGE-1 Tri-Mix which I was up to 21 ML per injection
- Verapamil Topical Cream was including since I was purchasing the PGE-1 mixture
- No Cost for the appointment (It may have changed since the last time I’ve been there)

Advice/Suggestions
- Through my experience with this avenue, I recommend that anyone who is starting their journey with PE, to start with the newbie routine and explore everything else before taking this avenue. Its expensive, dangerous and it does not guarantee gains/results.

What I’m Doing Now?
- I’m logging my progress with the LG Hanger at the moment and hope to make some progress there.


Current: BPEL - [6].1.2.3.4.5.6.(*7*).8.9.10[7].1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.9.10[8].1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.9.10[9]

Current: MSEG - [4].1.2.3.4.5.6.7.(*8*).9.10[5].1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.9.10[6].1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.9.10[7]

Goal: 9x6

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