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Dad is weak; Can T help?

Originally Posted by travkungen
I think he should consult an endocrinologist, I have been on TRT for more then 10 years, the treatment totally changed my life, today I use Androgel and 5 mg DHEA every day, The DHEA must be taken together with some fat, like olive oil, cheese, butter. In some countries DHEA is not legal.

Can you say some more about how it changed your life? Also, if you don’t mind my asking, about how old are you?


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Change off life

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
Can you say some more about how it changed your life? Also, if you don’t mind my asking, about how old are you?

I will write things shortly, English is not my native language. I am 55 years old, before I started I was constantly tired, depressed, bad EQ, irritated, I slept 10-12 hours a day and I was still tired and I was very fat.The first positive signs came after a week, it was mental, I felt happier and the depression was almost gone, during the first 6 months after starting treatment, I lost 15 kg off weight, I slept less and better, I started exercising and my muscles came back, suddenly I felt like 20 years again, full off energy. A word off warning, It is very important to examine the prostate before you start taking hormones. Do not mix whit hormones by your self, consult a doctor, but some doctors do not understand hormones, perhaps you need a second opinion from one more. I consulted both an urologist and an endocrinologist.

Thank you, Travkungen. He’s already seen an endocrinologist, and he’ll be seeing a urologist if he decides to go forward with treatment. I know that testosterone is believed to feed existing prostate cancers, although there is no evidence that it causes prostate cancer.

I’m glad to hear that the therapy has worked so well for you. Did you take anything to suppress estrogen? I’ve read that body fat contains an enzyme called aromatase that converts testosterone to estrogen. Supplementing testosterone doesn’t work for some guys because most of the supplemented testosterone gets converted to estrogen.

Also, do you have any experience with HCG (human chorianic gonadotrophin)? As I understand it, HCG replaces LH (leutinizing hormone) and induces the testes to produce more testosterone naturally.

Thanks again for your input.


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Only testo

In my country doctors are very conservative about hormones, so far I have only had testosterone, even the DHEA is under the counter, I am planing to discus the other hormones when I see the doctor next time, that will bee before summer. I will also ask him about a product named Thyroplex.

Travkungen, have you read this? In swedish: http://kolhydrater.ifokus.se/Forum/…a2-de442f641ea8

Pretty favourable of Thyroplex.


regards, mgus

Taped onto the dashboard of a car at a junkyard, I once found the following: "Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." The car was crashed.

Primary goal: To have an EQ above average (i.e. streetsmart, compassionate about life and happy) Secondary goal: to make an anagram of my signature denoting how I feel about my gains

Thank you Mgus, I will post about this after visiting the doctor, I will try to make the visit a bit earlier then planned.


Last edited by travkungen : 01-28-2010 at .

Originally Posted by man-of-10
As much as 85% of Americans are Vitamin D deficient. Vitamin D is crucial to increasing bone density.

The doc found that his Vit D was low normal and has prescribed 2000 IU per day. Maybe that will help a little.

A couple of observations:

The symptoms of old, frail men precisely mirror the symptoms of hypogonadism (low T) in young men. These include:

- Depression
- Irritability
- Loss of muscle mass
- Loss of bone density
- Loss of body hair
- Increase in body fat, especially abdominal fat
- Erectile dysfunction
- Lack of sexual desire
- Male breast development
- Foggy memory and impaired cognition

Who is to say these are not symptoms of old age but rather symptoms of low T? Why wouldn’t T replacement correct these symptoms in old men just as they correct them in young men?

Again, I’m not talking about juicing dear-old-dad to supraphysiological levels. I’m talking about restoring his hormone levels to those of healthy younger men who feel and function well.

Although there have been a lot general cautions sounded about the risks of TRT in older men, I still haven’t heard anything specific. There was previously a belief that TRT might be bad for the prostate, but that idea is gradually falling out of favor, as the following link explains:

http://www.youngbodymind.com/en/node/1692


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Last edited by ModestoMan : 01-30-2010 at .

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
… .Who is to say these are not symptoms of old age but rather symptoms of low T? Why wouldn’t T replacement correct these symptoms in old men just as they correct them in young men?

Again, I’m not talking about juicing dear-old-dad to supraphysiological levels. I’m talking about restoring his hormone levels to those of healthy younger men who feel and function well.

Although there have been a lot general cautions sounded about the risks of TRT in older men, I still haven’t heard anything specific. There was previously a belief that TRT might be bad for the prostate, but that idea is gradually falling out of favor, as the following link explains:

http://www.youngbodymind.com/en/node/1692


Maybe I didn’t express myself properly. But that’s my point excatly. I had lots of symptoms of “old age” that just happen to be the same os andropause. Now they’ve gone away — well many of them have.

Sorry, RickM. I didn’t mean to exclude you. You made yourself very clear and I really appreciate your point of view. My post was directed at the majority of respondents who have expressed concerns about using TRT to treat the elderly. I’m trying to get a better handle on how to weigh the risks (assuming there are any) against the benefits. I’m challenging the people who called for caution to explain their concerns—so I can understand them and be better informed and also so I can judge for myself whether the risks are real.


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Originally Posted by ModestoMan

The doc found that his Vit D was low normal and has prescribed 2000 IU per day. Maybe that will help a little.

2000? Maybe you mean 20,000 IU? I take 50,000IU once a week of scriptD3 and 8000IU of normal Joe Blow corner pharmacy D2 each day.


“You see, I don’t want to do good things, I want to do great things.” ~Alexander Joseph Luthor

I know Lewd Ferrigno personally.

twat you don’t want to be taking vitamin D2… it can give you problems with gene expression (receptors blocked etc.). Only supplement with the natural vitamin D3, seriously. And yeah about dosage, it is thought that the human body can use 4000-5000 IU of vitamin D each day. As far as I know the FDA is re-evaluating the ridiculously low current RDA for vitamin D.

In order for your Dad to actually increase his vitamin D level, he should obviously be supplement with more than 4000-5000IU, otherwise his blood level won’t increase significantly.

Give this a read. This guy really knows his stuff. Yes he sells supplements (no need to buy from him however) but that doesn’t take away from the very sound information he gives people.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/a…l-nutrient.aspx

He recommends that older people achieve higher blood levels than others, as they specifically want to prevent cancers (vitamin D3 is a powerful anti-cancer agent). Look in the comments section also, lots a anecdotal advice there.


Decemeber 2007: 5.8" BPEL x 4.9" MSEG

Current:-------->7.7" BPEL x 5.7" MSEG (7.2" NBPEL)

Current Goal:--->7.6" BPEL X 5.8" MSEG Do or do not, there is no "try".

Originally Posted by kimish
Well his test levels are within normal range so why would you want to give an elderly person testosterone? I am all for test, I love the stuff but in an elderly person I think it is very unwise due to the effects extra test can give a person, especially when they supplement test when they are in the normal range to begin with. He could have a heart attack at that age. The negatives outweigh the positives, especially for someone in their 80’s. If my father was alive and in his 80’s and someone wanted to give him test and his levels were within the normal range I would totally not let it happen. I know that normal prolactin levels can burden someone if other things are out of wack, so to speak. But again, the doctor knows best so keep us updated.

Hey Kimish: Until I read this post, I didn’t realize you were a hormone user yourself. What has your experience been like? Are you a bodybuilder, or do you supplement for medical reasons?


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As you said, there is plenty of evidence that testosterone “feeds” existing prostate cancer. And most sources seem to agree that about 80% of men have prostate cancer by age 80, so I’m not sure why that risk does not concern you.

The old-age symptoms you listed above are (mostly) also found in older women, so I don’t see strong reason to suppose that they are due simply to declining testosterone.

Has anyone undertaken good double-blind, placebo-controlled studies on testosterone replacement in older men? As you may remember, there were tons of correlational studies showing better health outcomes among post-menopausal women who were on hormone replacement therapy, and high-profile experts became HRT advocates. But then when real experiments began to be done, they actually had to be stopped early because the evidence was so strong that the hormones were hurting the women in all sorts of the ways; apparently the correlational results were due to self-selection of participants. I’m open-minded that TRT may turn out to be wonderfully beneficial (at least for men young enough that they haven’t yet developed prostate cancer), but I wonder whether the evidence is really in yet.

You said your father recently began to work with a personal trainer. How long has this been going on? What exercise is he doing? In older people especially, the adage of “use it or lose it” is extremely true, and I wonder whether most of his weakness has been due to his exercise aversion. Medications, too, as others have said, can take a toll. My grandfather has had to switch medications a few times to avoid unacceptable levels of fatigue and vertigo.

Thanks for following up, PG. I was waiting for someone to get all scientific on me ;) .

My father sees a urologist twice a year and has never been diagnosed with prostate cancer. His PSA has always been low. In addition, his endocrinologist told me he is ready to arrange a full prostate work-up for my dad if we decide to pursue TRT.

There is mounting evidence that low T actually causes prostate cancer, and this is why so many older men have it. One of the consequences of low T is increased estrogen (E2—estradiol). High E2 is positively correlated with increased prostate cancer risk and increased problems with enlarged prostate. High E2 is also correlated with coronary heart disease.
http://www.johnleemd.com/store/male_hormone.html
http://www.bodylogicmd.com/for-men/estrogen-levels

Some links regarding T therapy and the prostate:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/release…61116115443.htm
http://www.cenegenicsfoundation.org/blog/?p=383
http://seniorjournal.com/NEWS/Healt…ncerStudies.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19296069
http://www.springerlink.com/content/c356276l03354j83/
http://assets0.pubget.com/pdf/17105798.pdf
http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retr…022534705628418
http://www.wellnessmd.com/pdf/testosteroner_review.pdf

The old-age symptoms are exactly what my father has. Many physicians claim that they are connected to low T. For example,
http://www.mhwaq.org.au/index.php?o…d=94&Itemid=143
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2008…ging-Men_01.htm

Women also lose testosterone as they age. Maybe it’s the issue with them, too. Many women are starting to supplement testosterone:
http://www.amazon.com/Savvy-Womans-…65080478&sr=1-1

There’s even evidence that the problems with female HRT were that it didn’t supplement testosterone, and therefore upset the natural balance or hormones, leading to a tendency toward certain breast cancers:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15356405
See also amazon link above.

In addition, the symptoms of “grumpy old men” are the same as those associated with hypogonadism in young people:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/ma…ECTION=symptoms

Could the problem be hypogonadism rather than simply old age?

As for placebo-controlled, double-blind studies, we have this study showing improvements in lower limb muscle strength, body composition, quality of life, and physical function after 6 months:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/…um&ordinalpos=1

This one wasn’t quite so positive, but did show an improvement in lean body mass after 6 months with no negative effects on the prostate:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/…ogdbfrom=pubmed

This 36 month study showed better improvements in health and strength, including reduced cholesterol:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/…um&ordinalpos=3

This 12-month study showed good results:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/…m&ordinalpos=12

But 3 months doesn’t appear to be enough for big changes:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/…m&ordinalpos=22

On the other hand, 12 weeks produced good results when combining T with exercise, even though neither alone did any good:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/…m&ordinalpos=32

Dad hates working with his personal trainer, although he likes him as a person. He finds exercise painful and dull. He may be improving a little, though. He does a lot of lower body work and core work. I’ll be meeting the trainer the next time I visit the folks, probably over February vacation.

In addition to the above, here’s a good article from the NYTimes: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/17/m…ml?ref=magazine
There’s also this PowerPoint presentation from a leading guy in the TRT area: http://www.allthingsmale.com/MOA2.ppt

By the way, my father fell again this weekend. That’s about 10 times in the past year. Fortunately, nothing broke.

Originally Posted by Para-Goomba
As you said, there is plenty of evidence that testosterone “feeds” existing prostate cancer. And most sources seem to agree that about 80% of men have prostate cancer by age 80, so I’m not sure why that risk does not concern you.

The old-age symptoms you listed above are (mostly) also found in older women, so I don’t see strong reason to suppose that they are due simply to declining testosterone.

Has anyone undertaken good double-blind, placebo-controlled studies on testosterone replacement in older men? As you may remember, there were tons of correlational studies showing better health outcomes among post-menopausal women who were on hormone replacement therapy, and high-profile experts became HRT advocates. But then when real experiments began to be done, they actually had to be stopped early because the evidence was so strong that the hormones were hurting the women in all sorts of the ways; apparently the correlational results were due to self-selection of participants. I’m open-minded that TRT may turn out to be wonderfully beneficial (at least for men young enough that they haven’t yet developed prostate cancer), but I wonder whether the evidence is really in yet.

You said your father recently began to work with a personal trainer. How long has this been going on? What exercise is he doing? In older people especially, the adage of “use it or lose it” is extremely true, and I wonder whether most of his weakness has been due to his exercise aversion. Medications, too, as others have said, can take a toll. My grandfather has had to switch medications a few times to avoid unacceptable levels of fatigue and vertigo.


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Last edited by ModestoMan : 02-02-2010 at .
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