Thunder's Place

The big penis and mens' sexual health source, increasing penis size around the world.

Arginine (L) or Arginine monohydrochlorid?


Arginine (L) or Arginine monohydrochlorid?

What’s better to take for elevating NO-levels ? Thank you for your answers in advance.


...not buried yet, another 5" ahead!

KPR 0.072 @ Dec. 4, 2003

Strange, my German BB-Board as well as Thunderville IS RELUCTANT to answer this (to the chemical guys) easy question. Arrrgggggghhh :cuss:

Please, anyone, Shiver, Gottagrow & Co - where are you all today?

...not buried yet, another 5" ahead!

KPR 0.072 @ Dec. 4, 2003

Sorry LBorn, I have absolutely no idea, but I’ll do a little digging and see what I can find.

Actually Arginine Alpha-Ketoglutarate is what you are looking for to boost NO levels.

:star: :jumpblue:

Shiver, that’s very kind of you. Thank you very much in advance. Maybe it will also be beneficial for the NOX thread, since (as far as I know) ‘til up to date people just take Arginine (L). Maybe the monohydrochloride passes the liver better ?! But I really have no knowledge :(

JamesBond, thank you for pointing this out to me. To be frank, in fact I am just looking for something triggering more hardons and a fatter hang (like the one you are spurting in your new pics - Awsome !! ;) ). I thing the stuff you are mentioning is a bit up the designer AND the price scale, right?

...not buried yet, another 5" ahead!

KPR 0.072 @ Dec. 4, 2003

I searched the first 20 pages of google, but the base and MHCL versions seem to be used inter-changably by supplements companies. My guess is that they would work to a similar level are far as NO is concerned.

The supplement brand “NOX3” seems to have a good following, and that contains the AKG and the KIC versions so maybe that would be a mix to experiment with. Sometimes though I think they just add more things in order to stand out from the crowd.

Have you tried and Arginines before? It’s unchartered territory for me.

Yes, almost two years ago I ordered Arginine (L) powder two times (only 50 or 100g each time). I used to solve it in water and drink some of it before going home to my wife to have a great “after work sex” but to be frank, looking back it was not that much of an effect. But I think I didn’t do more than 7g per portion, This time I would order 500g and I would take 20g before going to bed. Together with the creatine I am on at the moment (taken in the morning) and the shitloads of whey protein throughout the day I will be a funny amino boy :D

...not buried yet, another 5" ahead!

KPR 0.072 @ Dec. 4, 2003

I’m not an expert of L-a, but twenty grams before bed sounds like a rediculous amount. Is there any reason why you chose this figure?

You are really not an expert, tsktsktsk. Here you can become one :D (sorry, the format got lost by pasting it in here. Dosage information can be found at the end of the article). I have no link to the source site anymore…

Clinical Benefits of L-Arginine in Achieving Maximum Sexual Performance

Maximum Sexual Performance
In humans, maximum sexual performance, by natural means, is dependent on the male’s ability to achieve and maintain an erection. Physical factors directly related to the increase or decline in sexual performance include diabetes, weight gain, testosterone, zinc, elevated insulin levels, low blood flow to the penis, low serotonin levels, brain neurons that misfire, hormonal imbalances, back injuries causing nerve damage, nitric oxide, and exercise.
Exercise, specifically those that build muscle, has been found to greatly increase sexual performance. Body builders can testify to experiencing increased sexual stamina and drive, and now scientists know why. There are three distinctly different reasons:
• Studies have shown that exercises that build the quadriceps (the large muscles on the front of the thigh) increase blood flow to the penis by more than 21 percent within a mere half-a-minute. This tremendous increase in the blood supplied to the penis is equal to a sexual rocket-launching.

• Exercise also increases growth hormone, which is the youth hormone responsible for libido and sexual stamina during the teen years.

• More muscle means more testosterone.
Nitric oxide (NO) is the newest and most effective means of increasing sexual performance in both normal males, and in males whose libidos are compromised. Researchers believe that nitric oxide “can correct up to 90% of all penile dysfunction.” Erections are the result of an increase in blood supply to the penis. NO allows for the vasodialation required for an erection to occur and impotence can be caused by a lack of nitric oxide.
Impaired Sexual Performance
Mental factors associated with sexual performance include depression, Seasonal Syndrome Disorder, and long-term suppressed anger. These factors can be treated with natural and/or chemical means including drugs, behavioral changes, exercise, diet modifications, and therapy.
It is common and normal for most men to experience an occasional episode of impotence. Temporary impotence can be caused by tiredness, lack of interest, low blood sugar, lack of sleep, and a variety of other non-permanent causes. Men who experience episodic, temporary impotence will rebound within a short period of time.
Those who do not rebound and find that they experience impotence on a frequent basis over a long period of time are experiencing “chronic impotence.” According to sexual dysfunction expert Ira Sharlip, M.D., 30 million men currently struggle with long-term chronic impotence.
Causal Factors In Reduced Sexual Performance
The number-one cause of impaired sexual performance and impotence is diabetes. Being overweight triples the risk of developing diabetes. Reduced sexual performance and impotence are also directly related to excess body weight. The risk of impotence triples in males who are overweight versus males who have normal body weights. Even minor gains in weight can affect libido and erections. A weight gain of only ten pounds can lower testosterone, which can make erection problems more likely. Since weight gain and Type II diabetes are dire oily related, it is important to stay fit and trim in order to promote strong erections.
Testosterone is the hormonal juice that triggers sexual performance in males. The hormone testosterone is mandatory for sexual potency and performance. High testosterone levels usually ensure high levels of sexual activity and strong erections. Low testosterone levels affect more than four million males, whose symptoms range from lack of interest to weak erections. For mild testosterone deficiencies, eating nuts may help solve the problem. Nuts, like pecans and peanuts have been proven to elevate testosterone levels. Men who have clinically low levels of testosterone usually need to take prescription medication to increase male hormones.
Prostate cancer and/or an enlarged prostate can cause reduced sexual ability as well as full blown impotence. Benign Prostatic Hyperplasia (BHP) is characterized by an enlarged prostate; a noncancerous growth of the prostate gland. Men who eat diets high in red meat are twice as likely to develop prostate cancer. Diet has a huge impact on prostate cancer, and males can reduce the odds of developing prostate cancer by a whopping 50 percent by simply eating fish at least three times a week Fish also contains omega-3 fatty acids which support circulation in blood vessels that supply the penis. Shrimp and other shellfish are also excellent sexual enhancers because they contain zinc. Men who do not get a sufficiency of zinc in their diet are at increased risk of developing libido, fertility and prostate problems.
Saw Palmetto is an excellent herb used extensively in Europe in the treatment of Benign Prostatic Hyperplasia, which will not directly increase libido or promote sexual function, but can, in some cases, mitigate the progression of BPH. Males that have an enlarged prostate frequently find they have trouble with erections and urination. Self-diagnosis and treatment of any problem involving the prostate is not recommended.
Many holistically trained physicians and urologists recommend the use of Saw Palmetto for BPH. Saw Palmetto works by keeping free testosterone from breaking down into DHT, a substance known to encourage prostate enlargement. When using Saw Palmetto preparations, be careful to screen the use of other herbs in the formula, which may exacerbate or create hormonal imbalances. If you are considering using Saw Palmetto for any reason, find a doctor that is versed in the use of Saw Palmetto who will work with you in conventional as well as alternative medicine choices.
Incidence of prostate cancer is rising in the U.S. and early detection is important. Many males are apprehensive about going to a doctor when they find they are having difficulty urinating, and/or frequent urination and erection problems because they fear it may be cancer. These symptoms are typically due to an enlargement of the prostate gland. An enlarged prostate is usually not cancer. It is interesting to note that 100% of all men over the age of forty will experience prostate enlargement.
When the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approved the drug Viagra in 1998 for the treatment of male erectile dysfunction, the rush was on. Within three weeks of the release of Pfizer’s drug Viagra, 40,000 prescriptions were being filled every day. Viagra’s immense popularity has grown to include its use as a recreational drug for sexual enhancement, instead of for impotence, indicating a widespread problem in the area of erectile function.
The drug Viagra is based on nitric oxide (NO). Nitric oxide allows erection of the penis by dilating the blood vessels to penile erectile tissue. Leading nitric oxide researcher, Dr. Arthur Burnett, a Johns Hopkins Urologist, stated that NO is the chemical messenger that produces erections and without NO, there could be no natural erections. Natural erections are those that take place without benefit of mechanical devices. Erections that occur from chemical or hormonal intervention are still considered natural erections.
Viagra (sildenafil citrate) increases the body’s ability to achieve and maintain an erection during sexual stimulation. When sexual stimulation causes local release of nitric oxide (NO), inhibition of PDE5 by sildenafil causes increased levels of cGMP in the corpus cavernosum, resulting in smooth muscle relaxation and inflow of blood to the corpus cavernosum. Nitric oxide (NO) allows erection of the penis by dilating the blood vessels to penile erectile tissue.
The use of Viagra as a sexual stimulant may mask undiagnosed medical conditions (such as diabetes and prostate disease). There is a strong possibility that Viagra will not be effective when used by the average male who is not impotent. Before taking Viagra, a complete medical history and exam to determine the cause of the impotence is advised. Several prescription and non-prescription medications are known to interact with Viagra, so it is also recommended that this information be shared with the attending physician.
Viagra-Like Herbal Products
Certain “Viagra-like” herbs and nutrient products are advertised as a source of testosterone. But many of these testosterone-driven products, like Yohimbe, can actually cause the body to reduce or halt its own production of testosterone. The side effect is testicular atrophy (shrinkage of the testes), and unnatural dependence on the product for erections.
Can Viagra Help Women in the Sexual Arena?
Viagra may help women, but it really depends on the specific problem. Women going through menopause frequently lose interest in sex, but with hormone adjustments, sexual desire can return. There are a lot of possible reasons why women lose interest in sex or are not able to achieve orgasm. Menopause, the birth of a child, low testosterone, depression, and a variety of other factors can cause sluggish libidos.
Increasing Orgasm in Women
Nitric oxide increases the incidence of orgasm in women because nitric oxide allows clitoral and vaginal tissues to enlarge and become responsive. Nitric oxide levels can easily be increased in women by taking an amino acid called L-arginine.
Another way to insure orgasms in women is to increase niacin levels in the uterus, The Masters and Johnson study found that women cannot achieve orgasm without having sufficient levels of niacin in the uterine walls. Niacin can be purchased at any health food store or vitamin company, and is commonly found in B-complex formulas. High-dosing is not recommended for beginners, as flushing can occur. Certain types and levels of niacin will cause “flushing.” Flushing is a common positive side effect of the vasodialation caused by niacin. Vasodialation is beneficial but has the potential harmless side effect of causing the ears to turn bright red and the skin to itch madly. Pharmacists frequently receive frantic calls from people who have taken an excess dose of niacin and fear they are experiencing a heart attack or severe allergic reaction.
Those electing to take niacin may wish to start with smaller doses (5-10 mg) taken with food and work up to higher doses as recommended by their health care professional. Niacinamide is commonly recommended as a replacement to niacin, but niacinamide does not have the beneficial effects that niacin does and niacinamide does not replace niacin in the uterine wall. Both niacin and vitamin E are beneficial vitamins for women who want to re-spark sexual interest and response.
The appropriate form of vitamin E (which is the dry, natural form) can be found in health food stores. Liquid vitamin E gel caps are not recommended due to their ability to oxidize. Ask for natural dry vitamin E in capsule, not tablet form. Do not be dissuade by energetic salespersons claiming that all vitamin E is the same. It is not. Natural dry powdered vitamin E is vastly superior, though a bit more expensive. The recommended dosage is 400 IU with breakfast and 400 IU with the last meal or snack of the day, for a total of 800 IU per day. Do not take more than 800 IU per day without a doctor’s permission.
Bring Out the Big Guns: Nitric Oxide
One of the keys to erectile function is nitric oxide. Its function in the human body is so important, that the Nobel Prize was awarded to the scientists who discovered its astounding properties.
The 1998 Nobel Prize for Physiology for Medicine was awarded to Doctors Furchgott, Ignarro and Murad for their research on nitric oxide (NO). The Nobel Prize winning scientists discovered that NO (nitric oxide), a gas, is responsible for transmitting important signals and regulating cellular functions in the human body. Their discovery included the revolutionary proof that NO acts as a signal molecule and this revelation was the first discovery of a gas acting as a signal molecule in a living organism. No other signal molecule works like nitric oxide. NO penetrates through membranes, regulating the function of other cells and signaling biological systems.
Prior to the work of the Nobel winning scientists, no one had foreseen that NO would be identified as a crucially important molecule that controls penile erections and is a signal molecule in the cardiovascular system. NO is an extremely unstable molecule that converts to nitrate and nitrite within ten seconds. When nitrogen burns, nitric oxide is formed and becomes an air pollutant. Nitric oxide (NO) in the body is not the same as the air pollutant form. Nitric oxide is also not the same as nitrous oxide (laughing gas) used by dentists as an anesthetic (though I have yet to be amused to the point of laughter in the dentist’s chair while using it).
Conversely, in the human body, NO offers significant advantages. NO helps control infections, regulate blood pressure, and prevent the formation of deadly blood clots. NO also acts as an aggressive soldier fighting parasites and bacteria that invade the body. NO is involved in many mechanisms that affect the human body including long-term memory and olfactory sensations.
Nitric Oxide Mechanism
There is a natural, non-drug method of creating nitric oxide in the human body. The mechanism is complex, but the trigger-mechanism is not. To produce nitric oxide in the body, a terminal nitrogen atom must combine with an oxygen molecule in the blood. An enzyme called nitric oxide synthase controls this reaction and NADPH, a niacin-containing redox-active electron storage compound, mediates the reaction.
This reaction can be accomplished via oral ingestion of formulas that contain the free form amino acid L-arginine. To put it simply, L-arginine equals nitric oxide. The left-handed molecule, L-arginine, is the primary source for NO in humans. NO produced in the body by L-arginine is called ADNO, or Arginine-Derived-Nitric-Oxide. An added benefit of taking L-arginine is improvement in immune function and reduced wound-healing time (1). Since the precursor to the neurotransmitter nitric oxide is L-arginine, a formula containing L-arginine can be effective as an alternative to Viagra, but the formula must be carefully designed not to increase or stimulate the production of free radicals and/or peroxynitrite. Do not rush out and buy plain L-arginine, because L-arginine without the correct synergists and co-factors or an improperly prepared L-arginine formula can cause reactivation of the herpes virus as well as the stimulation of peroxynitrate. Formulas containing free forms of both L-arginine and Lysine are to be avoided.
Non-Drug Nitric Oxide Formulas
Non-drug Nutraceutical formulations can be designed to target enhanced sexual function by producing NO in the human body. It is essential, in the formulation of a nitric oxide precursor, that the safe pathway for accessing NO is followed meticulously. Excessive production of NO and activation of NO via incorrect pathways (using un-orthodox Viagra alternatives) can cause brain-related free radical damage. Production of nitric acid through the combination of immune and nervous system activity plays a key role in the development of neurological diseases (2). This brings into question the possible damage to the body caused by using drugs that stimulate the production of NO through non-natural, non-L-arginine means.
NO can be introduced naturally into the body, but the key is to do so without sparking peroxynitrite, a biologically essential oxidant that is the most toxic free radical to the body. The natural methodology for stimulating NO should be safe and without side effects. Certain new Viagra-like products use herbal preparations and other methodologies to effect an increase in NO. Caution should be used in the selection of these new products and it should be ascertained that the product does not cause an increase in, or stimulate the production of free radicals and/or peroxynitrite.
Clinical Benefits of L-Arginine
L-arginine, taken orally, is a natural, non-drug alternative that safely increases nitric oxide in the body. Aside from the nitric oxide benefits attributed to L-arginine, the additional health benefits are nothing short of astounding. The clinician and researcher will appreciate the myriad of well executed studies that have been done which verity L-arginine’s efficacy as an anti-aging agent.
Clinically Proven Benefits of L-Arginine
• 7 grams of L-arginine per day improved blood flow in men, aged 55 to 77, with elevated serum cholesterol and early coronary artery disease. Circulation

• L-arginine supplementation reduced pathological increases in the thickness of plaque-lined vessel walls in people with elevated cholesterol and artherosclerosis. Circulation

• Arginine lowered plasma cholesterol levels in patients with advanced hypertension.
New England Journal of Medicine

• Arginine infusion has the same effect in cardiovascular patients as cholesterol-lowering drugs. The Lancet

• 17 grams of L-arginine per day given orally to elderly patients for 2 weeks resulted in a significant improvement in their lipid profile, with no adverse side effects.
Journal of Perenteral & Enteral Nutrition

• 8.4 grams L-arginine given 3 times a day significantly enhanced coronary artery blood flow in heart patients. Journal of the American College of Cardiology

• 7 grams of L-arginine improved blood-vessel relaxation in young men with elevated serum cholesterol and coronary artery disease (in as few as 3 days). Circulation
L-Arginine Dosage
The benefits of L-arginine supplementation are clearly dose-dependent. Beneficial dosages of L-arginine (per clinical studies) range from between 3 to 30 grams taken orally per day.

Dosages for Nitric Oxide: Adequate dosages of L-arginine required for ADNO (nitric oxide) are 3 to 6 grams per day divided into three equal doses. Example: 2 g mid-morning, 2 g mid-afternoon, 2 g evening.

Dosages for Athletes: Stimulation of growth hormone via oral administration of L-arginine requires higher doses taken at bedtime on a totally empty stomach:
9 g to 21 g (depending on body weight)
Females 6 g to 18 g (depending on body weight)
World-class athletes and professional bodybuilders take 10-15 grams of L-arginine at bedtime in a low glycemic base with appropriate cofactors (a). They report that their erections are frequently so strong upon arising; they are required to bend over to urinate. Further description would be indelicate. Though the benefits are pleasant, athletes do not take L-arginine to increase sexual function. They use L-arginine to naturally increase growth hormone levels, reduce injury, increase muscle mass, and to replace steroids. The average person is not required or recommended to use the same high doses of L-arginine as professional athletes.
Finding the Right L-Arginine/NO Product
When shopping for an L-arginine nitric oxide formula, make sure the research behind the formula is valid and safe (at least ten years of research). If the company marketing an L-arginine formula cannot validate that they have had an L-arginine product publicly “on the marker” for at least five years with no FDA/FDC violations or negative health reports, look elsewhere.
The consumer should ask the manufacturer of the product to explain the metabolic pathway or methodology by which his product stimulates the production of NO or provides NO to the body. The product should also be low glycemic, as insulin-stimulation is contraindicated in an arginine formula.
L-arginine derived nitric oxide (ADNO) formulas have the potential to replace Viagra for those persons choosing natural, rather than drug methodologies, and to contribute to maximum sexual performance.

...not buried yet, another 5" ahead!

KPR 0.072 @ Dec. 4, 2003

Actually the argenine alpha ketoglutarate or AKG is the main ingredient in the list of most of the NO supplements NO2 NOx2 etc. They range in price depending on the manufacturer. The big name ones are pricey but you can order them on the internet at a pretty big saving. I take it and really notice a difference with the pump I get at the gym and how long that pump lasts. It’s one of the better supplements that I have spent my money on.

I found prices in the internet for Arginine Alpha Ketoglutarate. How much mg do you consume per day. It’s recommended to take 3000mg to 12000mg per day, which is close to the servings recommended for Arginine. 100 pills of 1000mg AAKG are about Euro 30 (= USD 32). So, I am sure I would like to take 10000mg of AAKG daily. 100 pills would last 10 days = 3 x 100 pills per month = almost USD 100 per month - basically for some amino acids. No way!!! Did you ever try plain arginine? Sorry, but I can get 500.000mg (!!!) of Arginine (L) for Euro 45 from a food chemicals supplyer. If I would take 20g per day this would be 600g per month, which would be approximately Euro 55 = USD 58. Well, it’s not much of a difference :confused:


OK, again: How much AAKG are you taking daily and what’s your body weight? Maybe I am going to get some ;)

...not buried yet, another 5" ahead!

KPR 0.072 @ Dec. 4, 2003

I take 3 capsules in the am and then three before lunch for a total fof 18000 mg. I use the Pinacle NOX2 and you can get a bottle of 180 pills for around $30 us on the internet. I’m a small guy (150 lbs) and a hard gainer in the gym so I’ve been trying alot of different things. You can always give it a try and if you don’t like it try something else. I wouldn’t be too worried about a fatter hang if I were you though, I saw those pics with the becks can!! :)

Last edited by jamesbond : 10-12-2004 at .

by the way, how do insert the animated smiley faces into a reply?

There’s a list of smilies here:



Start a dialogue! The Gay Role Poll is waiting for your vote! :)

All truth goes through three stages: First it is ridiculed. Then it is violently opposed. Finally it is accepted as self evident. -Schopenhauer

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. -Richard Dawkins

Doesn’t matter which version you take. As long as it gets in your body.

Similar Threads 
ThreadStarterForumRepliesLast Post
Is it okay to combine Arginine and alcohol?NordstrumQMale Supplements1112-11-2009 07:40 AM
arginine and lysinejosipbrozusMale Supplements707-02-2009 09:11 PM
arginine doses?machtenxMen's Sexual Health1006-24-2009 07:06 PM
Encapsulating Arginine PowderhobbyMale Supplements2101-26-2007 02:24 AM
L arginine + GABAsetsumaMale Supplements710-02-2002 10:48 AM

All times are GMT. The time now is 04:09 AM.