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Thombosed Vein vs Clogged Lymph Vessels

Hi! Thanks to this thread I found out that I have a clogged lymph vessel. It doesn’t hurt, and I can get along with it when having sex or masturbation. Even though, I wouldn’t like to expose myself to a bigger risk damaging something and regretting about it later. We are talking about my dick, which is my most precious tool for God’s sake! This clogged lymph vessel has been there for about three or four months now. During this time, I have done some PE, but not regularly. I got this injury by overdoing with my clamping and jelqing. It is a shame, because I was starting to get some nice gains. And of course, I want more girth and length, but I am not sure if I should keep doing the exercises.

Since I am not feeling any pain and the clogging it’s not severe, do you think that I could keep exercising? In case you don’t, do you think I could work on my length with stretches while the lymph vessel heals? Or should I don’t do anything at all?

Originally Posted by lordsith
Since I am not feeling any pain and the clogging it’s not severe, do you think that I could keep exercising? In case you don’t, do you think I could work on my length with stretches while the lymph vessel heals? Or should I don’t do anything at all?

Stretching should be fine, as long as it doesn’t hurt or make the vessels worse. Light jelqing may be OK; it may help to soften things up a bit, so very gently massage over the lymph nodes after jelqing. Again, if it aggravates the lymph vessels, don’t jelq.

Clamping is not a good idea with any form of ‘clogging’, it will only make it worse.


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Always seems I come late to the party. Hey sparkyx, it’s been a while.

If you remember I tend to be a stickler for preciseness. I’ve posted before regarding lymph fluid vs. edema fluid (actually a couple of times). The most recent was on Girth theory: Pumping vs. clamping

Originally Posted by pudendum
Now I’d like to address a pet peeve. The use of the word lymph to describe the swelling in the penis after any PE maneuver (particularly pumping) is incorrect. It’s like saying the the Yankees beat the Red Sox in the bottom of the ninth by scoring two points. Both grate like the sound of fingernails on a chalk board.

The body has three spaces where fluid can go, the cells, inside the blood vessels and a third place outside the cells and the blood vessels known as the extracellular space. The amount of fluid in this space (known as extracellular fluid, or ECF for short) is very tightly regulated. By the way ECF represents a very significant portion of the fluid in your body.

The main function of the lymphatic system is to drain excess ECF (though there are other functions of the lymphatic system). Fluid in this 3rd space (as it is commonly called) is known as ECF, when it enters the lymphatics system and is drained to lymph nodes, it is called lymph fluid.

In general, the factors that tend to keep fluid in the blood and not flooding into the extracellular space is described by Starlings Law of Filtration which ttt alluded to. I described this in a post on a thread about excess fluid in the penis but the thread has been removed (I checked my postings). So let me briefly explain.

Fluid moves by pressure, from high pressure to low pressure, like water in a pipe. Water (which is the main component of the fluid we are talking about) moves easily through the vessel wall in the blood capillaries. The pressure in the blood capillaries is between 40 - 60 mmHg and the pressure in the extracellular space can normally be between -3 to 5 mmHg. If pressure was the only factor affecting how much fluid stayed in the blood vessels, then the 3rd space would be flooded ECF. It is not the only factor.

There are large proteins in the blood besides the blood cells which cannot diffuse through the blood vessel wall at the capillaries. Everybody has probably heard of osmosis. For those that haven’t or don’t know what it means, it is the diffusion of water from areas of high concentration (meaning water) to low concentration. Since there are large proteins in the blood but very few proteins in the ECF, the concentration of water in the ECF is higher, so diffusion is from ECF to the blood. This counteracts the pressure effect describe above.

This system is not perfect. There is a net loss of fluid to the ECF, though it is small. If it is not reabsorbed by capillaries, it moves around the 3rd space to equalize the pressure. The increased overall pressure in the 3rd space causes the flied to move towards lymph channels where it is taken away by lymph vessels to nodes.

Anything that alter this balance between pressures and protein concentrations can effect the amount of ECF, very rapidly. Negative pressure within the extracellular space, which can be expected with pumping at high levels of erection as the cavernosa reaches maximal volume, will cause an increase pressure difference which will counteract the blood proteins ability to hold fluid in the vessels and ECF volume will increase.

The same can be true for clamping. When the clamp is placed, pressure within the arteries and veins increase. This will also affect the pressure difference between the capillaries and the 3rd space. This will increase ECF volume until the pressure in the extracellular space rises to a level when the blood proteins can maintain the fluid in the blood. So during clamping, ECF volume will increase but not to the volume as in pumping.

So why am I peeved. The excess fluid in the extracellular space is called edema, not lymph. The vast majority of the effect of negative pressure on fluid build up is at the capillaries, not from drawing appreciable quantities of lymph fluid back into the penis.

You ask how fast can this fluid move out of the capillaries to fill the 3rd space. Well, a good example is a young well conditioned scuba diver whose tank runs out of air and he tries to take a breath against an empty tank. The negative pressure he generates to take this breath is enough to immediately (within seconds) fill his lung with fluid. This is called flash pulmonary edema. The negative pressure throws the factors out of balance instantaneously.

Sure the penis is not the lungs, but the principle is the same. The amount of pressure required to pull significant amounts of lymph fluid into the penis would probably turn the penis inside out. Besides, the amount of pressure within the extracellular space from the increased ECF that the negative pressure would produce would not allow fluid to enter the penis from the lymph vessels. The lymph channels would have a lower pressure and excess ECF, in fact, would be pushing its way into the lymph vessels and not out.

Guys, the excess fluid in your penis is edema fluid and not lymph fluid.

I hope I’ve explained this clearly.


ticktickticker was nice enough to help clarify my overly complex explanation:

Originally Posted by ticktickticker
You point is correct but quite academic.

Extracellular fluid is permanently cleared by the lymphatic system. When extracellular fluid increases, e.g. Due to pumping, it will still be cleared as long as the clearing capacity of this system is not overwhelmed (at low pumping pressures). Once this happens (certainly above 10 inch Hg and less, with individual variations) ) edema (=excess extracellular fluid) is formed.

Interestingly, there is a term in the medical nomenclature where both come together: lymphedema, a form of swelling due to edema secondary to lymphatic obstruction.

But this leads beyond the scope of the thread I would say.


The swelling and drainage problem you guys describe is actually a little more complex. I imagine from my read, you are all having these problems after pumping (sparkyx, you say you usual 5 in HG negative pressure). If this was simply a negative pressure edema fluid situation, drainage would tend to be unhindered and edema fluid would drain and the swelling would abate.

Pumping in no way, shape or form is a normal physiological experience. Sustained (and chronic over time) negative pressure could have several effects that could bring about what you describe.

First at higher then recommended pressures for pumping, proteins within the blood (and other substances as well such as fats) can actually pulled through the blood vessel walls at the capillaries, probably by micro injury to the wall. This places proteins in to the extracellular space which normally has very little protein in it. Large protein molecules tend to hold water (to equalize osmotic pressure).

Some reduction of edema fluid can occur by re-absorption back into capillaries. But this generally is not that significant. If the extracellular space, lymph channels and lymph vessels are normal and not obstructed or inflamed, usual reduction of edema occurs by these routes and things return to normal.

Higher than normal extracellular fluid space pressures (from lots of fluid accumulation - edema) can obstruct smaller lymph channels and prevent draining in the normal fashion.

Inflammation can occur as a result, with or without pain or redness. Inflammatory substances increase the leaks of protein through capillaries and causing the trapped fluid to become thickened with proteins.

Thickened edema fluids can obstruct lymph channels and or vessels. As I said, large protein molecules will draw water around them to equalize osmotic pressure. Swelling can worsen, particularly where obstructing fluids are localized. This can be bad enough after injury to cause a lymphocele over time.

With the valves in larger lymph vessels, it is less likely that pumping can draw lymph from the body into the penis (retrograde). You’d have to pump mighty hard - not likely without grave injury.

Why do thrombosed vessels hurt and lymphoceles or obstructed lymph vessels or channels generally not (at least initially)? Thrombosis is coagulated blood products and clotting proteins trapped in an obstructed blood vessel. Clotted blood is an irritant (it is not at all unusual to find a patient with trapped clotted blood from internal bleeding to start to develop a fever). The inflammation can be intense - as in thrombophlebitis. Over time they can reopen (recannulate) or remained damaged and scar down and blood reroutes around it.

Obstructed lymph channels or lymphoceles (like blisters) have fluid and proteins which are not as irritating and therefore may not be painful or red.

Anything that enhances drainage can resolve this problem (as many have described).

Abstaining from PE is probably a good idea if lymph channels/vessels do not reduce or edema is unabated. It is an inflammation and like thrombosis, pain and swelling can be reduced by NSAID’s like ibuprophen and aspirin.

If it is bad enough, a urologist visit is recommended and be honest as to the mechanism of the injury so he (or she, I wish) can effectively help you.

Superb post Pud

I suffered from a recurrent lymphocele about a year ago and found that a bit of heat and massage combined with some aspirin worked wonders.

As usual Pudendum, information of the highest caliber!

I would assume then you also described the mechanism of true darkening due to hemosiderin, the pressure differentials are enough to force red blood cells into the Extra Cellular Space, and as it breaks down, Hemosiderin is deposited there, correct?

So, what general advice can you leave us regarding this discussion as far as Vacuum ranges and recommendations concerning your take on ECF amounts?

So for example, in general stay below _____________ and if you see edema at this amount ___________ time to back down vacuum levels? I don’t know if you can make such recommendations, but if you can I would love to see them! Thanks.

I would also be very interested to know if you still think pumping at less than full erection should yield better gains due to the lower tension in the tunica ?

I think it was discussed in the pumping vs clamping thread.

Originally Posted by sparkyx
As usual Pudendum, information of the highest caliber!


As I greatly respect the knowledge, thought and work you put into your threads and posts and that I consider you a guru on this site (of course below the maharishi TP), I am honored that you would say so.

Originally Posted by sparkyx
I would assume then you also described the mechanism of true darkening due to hemosiderin, the pressure differentials are enough to force red blood cells into the Extra Cellular Space, and as it breaks down, Hemosiderin is deposited there, correct?


During the breakdown of red blood cells after they have lived their productive life (about 28 days), they are engulfed by phagocytes (literally means cell eater) in the liver, spleen and bone marrow, and iron is unlocked from the substance hemoglobin (the oxygen carrying substance in the red blood cell). In the blood, iron is carried as transferrin to the bone marrow to be repackaged into new red blood cells or to the muscle to make myoglobin. Iron can also be stored for future use as transferrin or hemosiderin in the spleen, liver and bone marrow.

When blood breaks down in some conditions and disease (known as hemolysis), so much hemosiderin is made that the body runs out of storage space and hemosiderin can be lost in urine (hemosideruria).

In an unusual disease in children, there is frequent bleeding in their lung and magropages (another scrounging, clean up cell type) engulf the blood and become engorged with hemosiderin. The damaged lung tissue stimulates repair which causes the formation of fibrin and collagen into which the macrophages filled with hemosiderin are locked giving the lung a very darkened appearance. This disease, pulmonary hemosiderosis, is very fatal. These kids die in most cases before they are 20. This is very unusual and rare.

Localized hemosiderosis can occur when there is bleeding with “…longstanding congestion or stagnation of blood in an organ…” (In Pathological Basis of Disease by Robbins and Cotran). “Tattooing” can occur if the hemosiderin filled macrophage are locked into fibrin/collagen.

Does this occur in PE, especially with pumping? I can envision some micro damage to capillaries with intense pumping causing leakage of micro amounts of red blood cells into the extracellular space. If you don’t see bruising, this “micro-bleeding” is not significant. Would the breakdown of these trapped blood cells by macrophage (and they can be found anywhere, including the penis) cause visible darkening (and ultimate permanent “tattooing” of the skin of the penis) from hemosiderosis? Good question.

If the obstruction of the lymph channels is short lived, any macrophages with blood cell breakdown products (including hemosiderin) would get washed away into lymph and ultimately make there way to the spleen where they will be “processed” to release the iron.

If the obstruction is longstanding as a number have described here, one could imagine - if bleeding is significant - that darkening of the skin could occur from hemosiderosis. However, I cannot imagine that with “microbleeding” it would be significant enough unless there is chronic leaking of red blood cells with frequent pumping and obstruction.

Just my opinion but I don’t believe that the penis darkening that many describe can be explained by hemosiderin alone, if there even are hemosiderin deposits.

Originally Posted by sparkyx
So, what general advice can you leave us regarding this discussion as far as Vacuum ranges and recommendations concerning your take on ECF amounts?

So for example, in general stay below _____________ and if you see edema at this amount ___________ time to back down vacuum levels? I don’t know if you can make such recommendations, but if you can I would love to see them! Thanks.

Well, first of all I am no expert. But in my research for one of my past posts I said:

Originally Posted by pudendum
…the recommended negative pressures for pumping (2 - 6 in Hg) related to the pressures in the tunica.

2 - 6 in Hg converts to 50 - 150 mm Hg (1 in Hg = 25 mm Hg).

I found these numbers when I looked regarding therapeutic pumping for erection in the urology literature.

150 mmHg of negative pressure is a good amount of suction on the penis and would definitely alter “Starlings Law of Filtration” that I discussed above and cause some edema, particularly for prolonged periods. Many on this site have described using higher pressures and having significant fluid build up in their penis. One could believe there is a pressure relation to the amount of capillary micro-damage (i.e., the greater the negative pressure, the greater the chance of capillary injury with micro bleeding).

Again, I am no expert, but I have used pressures in this range when I pumped (yes TP, I ultimately bought an LA Pump on your suggestion). My penis (or should I say I) could not tolerate pressures much higher and do not like fluid build up. I stayed at 4 - 5 in Hg, because after about 10 minutes at 6 of more I started building up intolerable amounts of fluid.

I’m not sure if I have effectively answered your questions. Remember, there’s a lot of opinion here.

Its good enough for my purposes, thanks!

Again, this recommendation is directing guys back into the traditional ranges, slightly expanded to include 2-6 in hg, which I still consider very reasonable.

HOWEVER, I have to add for the NEWBIES reading this, START AT THE LOW END and give yourself some conditioning time of at least a few weeks before you begin to venture into the higher end of 5-6 in hg. You can burst surface blood vessels if you go too high to fast.

That said, great having you stop by and contribute Pudendum, you are welcome ANYTIME in any of my threads!

Thanks sparkyx.

I mentioned above about capillary injury with high pressures and talked about “micro bleeding”, basically meaning it is not obvious (known in medicine as occult bleeding).

Originally Posted by pudendum
Does this occur in PE, especially with pumping? I can envision some micro damage to capillaries with intense pumping causing leakage of micro amounts of red blood cells into the extracellular space. If you don’t see bruising, this “micro-bleeding” is not significant. Would the breakdown of these trapped blood cells by macrophage (and they can be found anywhere, including the penis) cause visible darkening (and ultimate permanent “tattooing” of the skin of the penis) from hemosiderosis? Good question.

A more obvious indicator of capillary injury and bleeding are petechia (or more than one - petechiae). They’ve been mentioned a few times in a few threads. They are seen when capillary pressure gets too high causing individual capillary breaks and punctate red marks (miniscule but obvious red dots - see picture). Examples are in the face after strangulation or wrenching grab marks in child abuse. It also occurs when the clotting cells known as platelets are abnormally low.

If you see these, it is quite obvious you’re pumping too high.

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Originally Posted by capernicus1

I would also be very interested to know if you still think pumping at less than full erection should yield better gains due to the lower tension in the tunica ?

I think it was discussed in the pumping vs clamping thread.

Yes, but I don’t want to hijack sparkyx’s thread so I will write a few lines in Girth theory: Pumping vs. clamping to address my thoughts on this.

Thank you sir.

Great thread guys! I have been doing PE for 7 years now and just discovered this problem a week ago. I knew I could find help at Thunder’s Place!!

Here is how I got rid of my “bumpy” worms that were around my circumscision scar just below my head. I had them for about a week and a half before I came to TP for help. I believe they may have be cause by extra use of my Penimaster. It took about 2 days to reverse the problem.

The trick is heat & some massage, at least for me. What I did was purchase some of those hand warmers that when you open them they stay warm for almost 10 hours. I first wrapped them in a paper towel (then later a small wash cloth) and placed it wore it next to the problem area in my briefs. I would massage the bumps occasionally through the day. I was surprised after a few hours the problem about disappeared. I repeated it again the next day until they were gone. Very easy! I would not have gotten this idea without the advice on this thread. Thanks again!

Hi Guys. I’m happy to find this thread.

I’m about two weeks in with a bump, and not sure if its a thrombosed vein or a clogged lymph vessel. Any definitive way to tell? (my bump is about 3/4 of the size of a green pea. If it’s the lymph, I’m good to pump lightly, but if it’s the vein, I should hold off right?

I’m just shy to get physical with a girl I’m seeing till I’m normal again!

f.w.


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